Multiple dilemmas

[Ian1208]

 

My plan was to take my nearly bog standard 1500 spitfire to Thailand in 2022 and take part in a classic car rally through Thailand, Cambodia and Vietnam. I am familiar with the region as I have family and business’s there. I was also going to do a classic hill climb in one of the national parks. Both of these events I would enter in the ‘standard/ unmodified’ class 1300cc – 1600cc. I have just returned and had a look at the hill climb event and now realise I’m vastly underpowered comparing to what I saw in the class. And this is my dilemma.

I have a host of new parts that none of which will give me more horse power. The rules and regs are laxed. Very laxed and I learned that providing you can provide proof/provenance, you can swap engines to a unit from the same era.

So question one; For a budget of circa 2k, what mods could be done to the 1500 unit to boost my HP. Bearing in mind I have to outsource this work as I have no facilities or mechanical expertise to do anything other than change a sparkplug.

Question two; I have a certified 1974 Lancia/Fiat 1600 twin cam and 5 speed gearbox from my rallying days in the late 80’s early 90’s. It was rebuilt by the now late Guy Croft producing 172bhp at the flywheel and never used (ever!) It is complete with all ancillaries ready to go and I never got round to fitting it to my car back then. It has zero road miles and 30 min running time.

I know for the purists this potential swap is taboo. I’m reluctant also but it could resolve my dilemmas if it was doable.

I suppose I could simply go buy a hot classic mini or something but I’m rather smitten with my Spitfire. I love it! Used it every day as my daily driver. To my surprise it attracts so much attention with all ages snapping photos and I know for a fact the Thai’s, Cambodians and Vietnamese will love it. I also know for a fact that there are no registered Spitfires in Thailand unlike a host of imported Minis and MG’s from Japan.

What to do………………………………

[Clive]

If you are going to pay somebody to do the work, 2k is unlikely to get the fiat engine into the spitfire ( though it would be fantastic, has been done too so will fit) but would require bigger front brakes, custom prop and a stronger diff . That would blow the budget before anything else.

To perk up a 1500, it is a well trodden path. Hotter cam along with raised compression and a bit of porting, 4 branch manifold, then a rolling road tune (somebody who can do the carbs and the distributer) should see you get to 100bhp. That assumes the crank etc is in good order. In fact, I would add an oil cooler to the list. 

 

[Nigel Clark]

39 minutes ago, clive said:

If you are going to pay somebody to do the work, 2k is unlikely to get the fiat engine into the spitfire ( though it would be fantastic, has been done too so will fit) but would require bigger front brakes, custom prop and a stronger diff . That would blow the budget before anything else.

To perk up a 1500, it is a well trodden path. Hotter cam along with raised compression and a bit of porting, 4 branch manifold, then a rolling road tune (somebody who can do the carbs and the distributer) should see you get to 100bhp. That assumes the crank etc is in good order. In fact, I would add an oil cooler to the list. 

 

I would echo Clive's advice regarding uprating the Spit 1500 engine.

Don't forget the brakes if the car is going to be driven hard. The standard system is good if well maintained but needs decent pads for the front discs. Ideally, fit Mintex 1144 pads in place of standard, overhaul the brake system and fill with fresh fluid.

Nigel

[Nick Jones]

Do you really need to be “competitive” in this one event?

Is it not better to just take a tried and trusted car as it is and enjoy it for what it is?

A 1500 conversion is straightforward enough but really needs to have the gearing sorted at the same time - swapping to the 3.63 differential is especially important and overdrive is recommended. Also recommend an oil cooler.

Nick

[Ian1208]

So the points raised is my dilemma. I would love to keep the 'standard' 1500 power unit with the existing gearbox and o/drive. I have just had the uprated clutch fitted and was intending to have a raft of upgrade parts fitted that I have collected. New alloy high capacity rad, electronic distributer/ignition, 4 into one s/steel manifold, new vented disc and callipers, oil cooler, comp air box, uprated springs and shocks etc, and a few other things on top of a serious service. Compression is good and all fairly balanced. The engine was reputably rebuilt 20k miles ago. After the new clutch I took it to a rolling road and it  only achieved a paltry 62 BHP at the rear wheels. Even after fettling with the parts I have, the mechanic suggested another 15/20 horses. So to be even looking at trying, I would have to wind it up on the downhill and be brave on the brakes! (Yes I am competitive and yes I have a full cage and hardtop.) I also have a full set of 6" alloy's that look like the original to replace the wires. Tyres are actually free provided they have 4 grooves but I think I would play safe as the rain can be a wash out. (add, every bush, ball joint and mounting). For the record, I am not bothered about the dents, scratches, ripped trim and blemished paintwork. That's the character of the car and its there to be used as much as possible.

So I have a raft of improving parts and a budget left of 2k to spend. Do I spend it on the engine; Re-build, balancing, ported head, decent carbs. I'm not too bothered with the gearbox or the overdrive as I quite enjoy wringing its neck. Diff, lim slip? I've been driving FWD and 4WD for 40+yrs since my modified Mini and Fiat days so should I? is it worth it?

Alternatively, I already have the 1600t/cam and gearbox ready to fit (something). It really is a work of art and it sits in a steel cradle with absolutely everything already fitted. It was stored at my late parents garage until nearly 10 years ago being turned over by hand twice a year. Then it was stored in a private garage who stores classics etc. Two years ago it was fired up after an oil change and again last year. A prop specialist quoted me £150 to modify and strengthen my existing. The rolling road chap offered to do the swap (fit engine and box on to the frame) for £350. He spent a fair while measuring. It appears there is ample room in the engine bay and tunnel. Custom made adapted mountings came in at £160. So, £660. I would need an exhaust. £400(?) So just over a grand. Just the back axle and diff to think about.

If I were to do a swap to the TC, it would be fitted tested and removed. I would also take the 1500 unit all packed in the container (import tax reasons) as I will not be bringing it back to the UK. After the two events, be it a finish or in bits, I'm gifting it to my Thai navigator who has assisted my business interests over the past few years and is an avid 'watcher' of classic UK cars ( he has an old MK2 Jag that's his pride and joy) along with a couple of Jap classics and a split screen VW pick up. He wouldn't get the Guy Croft built engine and box though!

Thanks Clive, Nigel and Mick for your opinions I am listening.

Any track guys on the forum that could give an opinion?

[Clive]

1 hour ago, Ian1208 said:

 

Any track guys on the forum that could give an opinion?

I have done a few trackdays in my spitfire.

It has a ford st170 engine/5speed box, subaru diff (which needs CVs and rotoflex uprights, so not easy)

If you can get the fiat engine installed for around £1k, do it. The car will be very lively. 

Try 2spec transmissions for a Blackline LSD. That should make the diff rather stronger. Fit new BEST quality UJs to the driveshafts too. Genuine Freelander are about the best (no grease nipples)

 

[Iain T]

If you're going to gift the car to your navigator then keep the 1500 engine, especially as you wouldn't leave the Fiat engine in. Just do the head mods, cam, oil cooler and get it rolling road tuned. Keeps it simple and easy. Not as quick as the twin cam but much less complicated. 

I used to race a Jag Mk2, never won a race but as Mathew says I still had loads of fun and anguish, fear and empty pockets! 

Iain 

[DVD3500]

As with anything non-standard: Document it well. That is easier today than ever. Pictures, videos, electronic notes...

We are all short for this world in the long run (see what I did there?) and however ends up with it will have no clue what to do.

 

[Colin Lindsay]

2 hours ago, Iain T said:

If you're going to gift the car to your navigator then keep the 1500 engine, especially as you wouldn't leave the Fiat engine in. Just do the head mods, cam, oil cooler and get it rolling road tuned. Keeps it simple and easy. Not as quick as the twin cam but much less complicated. 

That would be my not very experienced suggestion. Get whatever oomph you can out of the original - they guys here will talk through the available options for squeezing more horses out of it - and enjoy the challenge of getting every last bit of power you can, by sourcing the period parts or their modern equivalents. A modern might be faster but where's the fun in that?

[Iain T]

3 hours ago, Colin Lindsay said:

A modern might be faster but where's the fun in that?

James Hunt loved his A35, not the quickest of cars but still fun. 

[PeteH]

Ahh!. Mini`s. Same "A" series, but went like the "proverbial", cornered on rails to the tyre limit, and lived to fight again. Downside? F-All ground clearance on forest stages!. And like Faulty Towers?, "don't mention the exposed distributor in the wet"!!.

Pete

[Clive]

4 hours ago, Colin Lindsay said:

That would be my not very experienced suggestion. Get whatever oomph you can out of the original - they guys here will talk through the available options for squeezing more horses out of it - and enjoy the challenge of getting every last bit of power you can, by sourcing the period parts or their modern equivalents. A modern might be faster but where's the fun in that?

But Colin, the Fiat Twincam is older than the 1500 spitfire engine! First around in 1966. (I half  jest, as the 1500 design dates back to the late 50s I think, but the fiat engine is SO far ahead of the Triumph unit, but almost as old a design)

Hmm, if giving the car away I think I would hang on to the Fiat engine and put it in something deserving. Maybe another spitfire....

[Colin Lindsay]

8 minutes ago, clive said:

But Colin, the Fiat Twincam is older than the 1500 spitfire engine! First around in 1966. (I half  jest, as the 1500 design dates back to the late 50s I think, but the fiat engine is SO far ahead of the Triumph unit, but almost as old a design)

Hmm, if giving the car away I think I would hang on to the Fiat engine and put it in something deserving. Maybe another spitfire....

Older but not original... we really are very dated in 'our' cars, some of the designs are ages old as you say, but that's the fun of it.

[Iain T]

12 minutes ago, clive said:

Hmm, if giving the car away I think I would hang on to the Fiat engine and put it in something deserving

A FIAT 124!?!

[PeteH]

7 minutes ago, Iain T said:

A FIAT 124!?!

Are there any left?. Other than as Lada`s?.

Pete

[Iain T]

8 minutes ago, PeteH said:

Are there any left?

A RHD saloon for sale in good condition for £10k. I tried to copy the link but failed again! 

Iain 

[Colin Lindsay]

4 minutes ago, Iain T said:

A RHD saloon for sale in good condition for £10k. I tried to copy the link but failed again! 

Iain 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/384475446374?hash=item598485bc66:g:Jl0AAOSwuHJhfnYu

This one on eBay? My father had a green one, traded-in his Triumph Toledo for it and we thought we were so modern... :.

[Iain T]

How this? 

It's the same one! 

1971 Fiat 124S Sedan For Sale

[PeteH]

👍 A Lada!.🤣

Pete

[Iain T]

4 minutes ago, PeteH said:

👍 A Lada!.🤣

That's a FIAT with Russian steel! 

[daverclasper]

48 minutes ago, Iain T said:

That's a FIAT with Russian steel! 

Was the Russian steel as bad on the Lada's though?, maybe they were getting a cheeky one, over on the West, with the crap exported stuff?.

Also Fiat at that time had crap steel anyway, Russian?, or was that the joke, that Ladas/Fiat, had the same crap steel😃

[Iain T]

7 minutes ago, daverclasper said:

Was the Russian steel as bad

I think FIAT sold the manufacturing rights and tooling to a Russian company. Lada's were made in Russia, probably from melted down T34 tank steel😂! 

I don't think we're helping Ian with his dilemma........ 

[PeteH]

Part of the alleged issue with "Russian Steel" was the percentage of "Scrap" which was added to the mix was far greater than was used (say) in the UK, this was thought to make the final steel less stable and more prone to failure and corrosion. Japan and China where supposedly similarly affected during the same period. My son`s Japanese car of the era was like a lace curtain in parts before he scrapped it. I believe Fiat sourced steel from both sources at some point?.

Pete

[Colin Lindsay]

10 minutes ago, PeteH said:

I believe Fiat sourced steel from both sources at some point?.

Pete

Fiat sourced theirs from recycled sardine tins... they used to rust like billy-o back in the day.

[PeteH]

1 minute ago, Colin Lindsay said:

Fiat sourced theirs from recycled sardine tins... they used to rust like billy-o back in the day.

My informant said Corned Beef?. Bully for them!. Yeah. got my coat.😁

Pete