Multiple dilemmas

[Clive]

2 hours ago, Iain T said:

A FIAT 124!?!

That is probably a bit of a waste. Saying that, I wouldn't say no. A great alternative to an Escort.

The fiat engine is one of the best engines ever produced. and I think 10 World Rally Championships (manufacturers) under its belt. 

[daverclasper]

Was the source tomato then (with the tinned sardines)

[Iain T]

13 minutes ago, clive said:

The fiat engine is one of the best engines ever produced. a

Most Italian twin cams are very good, I had a 1300cc 1958 Alpha which was a joyous rev machine! Light years ahead of the dare I say Triumph..... 

[Ian1208]

13 hours ago, Mathew said:

So let me get this right. You posted a question that you knew the answer too. You withheld information that would have influenced answers. Then used that information to prove some point. You have clearly been in management !

Mathew, I know some answers but the question was directed or aimed at you guys that have 'been there and done it' so to speak and thus persuading me to do choose what I have (and love) or go for some decent BHP with a budget of 2k. Of course I've looked about and priced what I think I need to do either choice and the twin cam appeared (to me) something I should consider. The weight of opinion suggests keeping the 1500 lump and modify (that would be my 1st choice) but to get the power at anywhere near something that won't embarrass me would cost about 4k. Using it as is would probably mean a Tuk Tuk would thrash me. I'm not suggesting my 50 years of driving experience would nab me a class win but from what I saw it would mean dead last (on the hill climb).

I have a bit of competition experience in the 80/90's but minis, Fiats, and Lancia's. Mainly the forest and some tarmac. Beginning with road rally's and progressing. Also in my mid 40's I took up karting and got pretty much hooked on that. I will drive anything that has four wheels. There is a huge difference running around enjoying yourself with a small group of people but when the helmet goes on...................

I am sad (maybe ashamed) to say I have never ever driven a rear wheel car in anger. FWD, 4X4 and even mid engine but never straight RWD. I didn't have the balls to get the tail out until a couple of years ago when I had the opperchansity to drive some Escorts, Nissans and Toyota's in Thailand. Sorry, I'm going on a bit.

Anyway the best price for a ST2 (whatever that is) lightened & Balanced, bear unit is 2.5k exchange from a well known supplier. That's put me over the budget by £500 and still to fit. That was my dilemma. I got an answer that 2k probably wouldn't be enough to to do the conversion but it appears 2k wouldn't be enough to squeeze out some decent HP either. I hoped that those that did a transplant could give me the pitfalls and complexities. I have tried searching for a used uprated unit but to no avail or there really quite expensive being very highly modified for track racing. Bear in mind the rally covers some 1,500km.

I had always intended to send the car to Thailand. Classic events or not and to that end I had already pre-emptied sending over a complete rear end still attached to a chassis (I simply cut it) a non running front end with chassis and some interior etc. I did this in early March last year when I bought a rolling unfinished project for 1k.

I'm not from management. I own the management! (tongue in cheek of course)

Thanks for all the input guys

 

[Colin Lindsay]

1 minute ago, Ian1208 said:

Mathew, I know some answers but the question was directed or aimed at you guys that have 'been there and done it' so to speak and thus persuading me to do choose what I have (and love) or go for some decent BHP with a budget of 2k.

I know what you meant, I do it all the time, just putting it in print and getting a second opinion can often give you the impetus you need to make the decision.

Whatever you do, we want to see the photos.

[Ian1208]

51 minutes ago, clive said:

That is probably a bit of a waste. Saying that, I wouldn't say no. A great alternative to an Escort.

The fiat engine is one of the best engines ever produced. and I think 10 World Rally Championships (manufacturers) under its belt. 

Agree Clive. I've had many Fiats and Lancias with 1300, 1600 and 2000 engines. Whilst the body and electrics rotted as you slept, the engines were a joy even in  standard form. Keeping to the forum and Triumphs, I have had it in my head that I saw (somewhere) a long time ago someone fitting a Fiat TC to their Spitfire. I have searched but cannot find it. However, I'm no mechanic. I love the simplicity of these British engines when something does go wrong.

[Clive]

OK, having done a few alternative engines into spitfires (Sprint, carbed zetec, injected ST170) here are my general observations:

Carbs are easier as much less wiring/sensors. 

Clearances are everything, it can take hours of work to get an e=inch further back, or may mean teh sump needs modifying t=etc.

Engine mounts need to be made in situ, or at least tacked in place, the removed and fully welded.

Exhaust, space is tight with the narrow chassis rails.

Clutch, cable can be awkward to setup, took me a while, later changed to hydraulic. 

The insignificant stuff catches you out, speedo cables, getting the prop angles right etc.

 

The fiat engine into a spit is here, he has spent years on it so far, I think he keeps changing his mind about details and then gets sidetracked by life

https://sideways-technologies.co.uk/forums/index.php?/profile/680-spit131/

[Ian1208]

Found this but not the one I saw;

 

[ahebron]

Fiat twin cams go well in Morris Minors easily fitting under the cavernous bonnet

Back in the 70s the New Zealand Education Dept had a fleet of Fiat 124 Special T saloons.
My parents owned 2 of these with the 1438 DOHC engine and 4 speed gearbox.

[PeteH]

Despite the comment about Lada`s In recent time, I have had 4 Fiat Punto`s in quick succession. (They are ideal, Cheap, cars to fit a drawbar too and tow behind a Motorhome) ALL eventually failed MOT on chassis/welding. But the 1200 16V Engine!, is a real "Pocket Rocket". And has seen more than one "sport car" off. The 1400version is something else!.

Pete

[Ian Smith]

17 hours ago, Iain T said:

A FIAT 124!?!

The basic Fiat 124 is about 1200cc, but (IIRC) places like Abarth made some rather nice tuning parts, not least the basic twin-cam head. It's been a long time ago, but you could go from 1200 to 2000 cc in incremental 200cc sizes. I've not seen either the 1.2 or 2.1 litre model, but 1.4-1.8 litre engines are quite  well known. ISTR the Dellorto carbs let it down, but nothing that fuel injection  wouldn't  sort out.

I should stress that is was a very long time ago; mid 1970's. 

Cheers,

Ian.

[Clive]

1 hour ago, Ian Smith said:

The basic Fiat 124 is about 1200cc, but (IIRC) places like Abarth made some rather nice tuning parts, not least the basic twin-cam head. It's been a long time ago, but you could go from 1200 to 2000 cc in incremental 200cc sizes. I've not seen either the 1.2 or 2.1 litre model, but 1.4-1.8 litre engines are quite  well known. ISTR the Dellorto carbs let it down, but nothing that fuel injection  wouldn't  sort out.

I should stress that is was a very long time ago; mid 1970's. 

Cheers,

Ian.

Don't knock Dellortos. Thet were ver similar to Webers. But Weber never developed them any further, but Dellorto made changes over the years. I have a pair of early Dellorto 40's on a 1300 Triumph engine. That will leave a std GT6 for dead, straight line and even more so in the twisty bits. Probably teh engine you want in your spitfire! (But I reckon the complete, dressed engine cost the chap well over double your budget building it himself)

Plus that car will do 40mpg sitting at speeds just the right side of getting a ticket on the motorway.

[Ian Smith]

One of the problems with Webers & Dellortos was foaming, caused by people  overdoing the manifold securing nuts.  David Vizard opined that the twin SU HS4 would come very close in flow capacity to the DCOE 40. Being that, I don't need a straight line race, or leaving me for dead: I've done all that. I've grown up with SU carburettors; it's just what I'm used to. Our local main Fiat dealers appeared to have customers with poor performing cars, which necessitated attention. 

I'll  respectfully refer you to my last paragraph on my previous post. It was a long time ago.  For my part, I'm still very much 'at the beginning' with this project, and it's a nice re-learning curve.

Cheers,

Ian.

[daverclasper]

4 hours ago, Ian Smith said:

One of the problems with Webers & Dellortos was foaming, caused by people  overdoing the manifold securing nuts.

Is that specific to those carbs, as such, as not heard of this as a general issue on carbs before and ,maybe, therefore not relevant with more common, run of the mill carbs/applications?

Ta Dave

[Ian Smith]

12 hours ago, daverclasper said:

Is that specific to those carbs, as such, as not heard of this as a general issue on carbs before and ,maybe, therefore not relevant with more common, run of the mill carbs/applications?

Ta Dave

Hello Dave, I don't think it was  (or is ) a fault of the DCOE carburettor; more a case of  mis-appreciation by the person fitting the carbs. If (like me ) you opened an MGB bonnet, you'd see a set of carburettors firmly connected via the inlet manifold. Then, the next car (a rally-prepped Escort Mex ) would have those wonderful looking DCOE's  with a slight 'wobble' on the manifold. With a background of SU work, you would be sorely tempted to wind in those nuts.. After all, they're loose, aren't they? A lot of people did that, and were down on power as a result. Not a carb fault, certainly; or, a case of after-market size application. People failing to appreciate the minute harmonics in relation to the fuel bowl, means that aerated fuel is liable to be  present at the point of delivery. 

 I used to have set of 40's for my Moke. After a while, I reverted to a HS4, then HS6 carb. I went that route because I had a better handle on getting it 'right'.  The OEM carb is, by & large, designed to cover the performance capabilities of the vehicle. Up-rating or upgrading will possibly change the parameters, which is where we came in....

There are some really excellent videos on the Weber/Dellorto carbs; all free on Youtube. 

Cheers,

Ian. 

[Steve P]

I have a matching set of Italian triple 40`s in the shed,bought years ago for £250,was going to fit them to my 2.5 Vitesse,but with the HS6`s on it it makes really good power and torque so never bothered.

Steve

[Pete Lewis]

17 hours ago, daverclasper said:

not heard of this as a general issue on carbs

the further outboard you mount the float bowls the greater the shake of engine vibrations   tend to foam up the fuel inside 

so they mount the carb on rubber isolators to dampen the shakes 

frequently these break and you suck air , there can be a variety of fixing some with springs under nut etc  to keep it all flexible 

often found on side draft fixed jet carbs 

Pete

[Ian Smith]

I'd agree with that. The SU or Stromberg has a deeper fuel bowl, so any trapped air is encouraged to rise. Certainly, the bowl  feeds from the bottom, out to the needle. Hopefully, by the time the petrol is drawn up through the SU, any air inclusion has long gone. 

To my possible  detriment, I'm a great fan of the SU. That said, I can foresee a great switch to fuel injection, if only to improve emissions & fuel economy.  That'll mean another huge learning curve for me. I got out of working  (playing )with cars when marriage & mortgage came along....

Cheers,

Ian.

[PeteH]

38 minutes ago, Ian Smith said:

I got out of working  (playing )with cars when marriage & mortgage came along..

The story of many a Petrolheads life?.😭 And likely the reason why so many "Greybeards" finish up on these forum too?.

Pete

[Pete Lewis]

6 minutes ago, PeteH said:

when marriage & mortgage came along.

many had to play with cars (moonlighting)   then to keep the accounts in a thin  red line 

Pete

 

 

[Ian Smith]

25 minutes ago, PeteH said:

The story of many a Petrolheads life?.😭 And likely the reason why so many "Greybeards" finish up on these forum too?.

Pete

Greybeards? I wish! More white than anything!  Actually, I shouldn't complain: In fact, I won't complain at all. I'm rather glad I'm attempting this now, rather than when  I was a callow youth. I still retain (most) of the impetus, but deep down, I know full well that the finished item would have been absolute rubbish. Lucky me, I guess. I've learned to ask the important questions, like 'is it right?  Is it good enough? I've found that forums such as these attract certain demographics, so if you're reading this, you'll know what I mean. I fully admit to being on a learning curve here, so I'm quite happy to ask others about things like guidance & pitfalls. 

Cheers,

Ian. 

[Colin Lindsay]

11 minutes ago, Ian Smith said:

Greybeards? I wish! More white than anything!  Actually, I shouldn't complain: In fact, I won't complain at all. I'm rather glad I'm attempting this now, rather than when  I was a callow youth. I still retain (most) of the impetus, but deep down, I know full well that the finished item would have been absolute rubbish.

How does that song go? "I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now...." I could have done anything when I was younger, but not really understood how or more importantly why. I know the theory of more things now, so want to do them properly, not just by luck or ignorance.

I'm still unchanged in music, though. The musicians forums are full of 'I use an 0.12 string tuned to E sharp minor and an 0.8mm plectrum struck at an angle of 3 degrees produces a sharper sound than tuning to F flat and using an 0.16 string, you can't use an 0.18 as it's beyond the parameters and the neck was never designed for that sort of stress ..." and I'm thinking "What on Earth is he on about?" I don't answer any questions on those forums as I don't know anything. I just play and it sounds ok to me.

[PeteH]

2 hours ago, Colin Lindsay said:

'm still unchanged in music, though. The musicians forums are full of 'I use an 0.12 string tuned to E sharp minor and an 0.8mm plectrum struck at an angle of 3 degrees produces a sharper sound than tuning to F flat and using an 0.16 string, you can't use an 0.18 as it's beyond the parameters and the neck was never designed for that sort of stress ..." and I'm thinking "What on Earth is he on about?" I don't answer any questions on those forums as I don't know anything. I just play and it sounds ok to me.

Right! That`s me Lost!. Playing instruments is not in my ??? anything??, really. My youngest can (could). Me useless!!.  I admire those who can, although many of those I did admire have as we tend to say "Crossed the bar". 

Very sad to watch Glen Campbell`s last concert. Maybe he shouldn't have done it?. But despite his affliction the magic was still there in the musicianship if not his ability to remember the words. RIP.

Pete.

[Peter Truman]

Belgium steel was crap in the early 60’s (think Ford UK had corrosion issues even on new cars) and Korean steel late 60’s was the worst I’ve seen the deformed reinforcing bar when bent you could see it layering, we had to ship all reinforcement from the UK, long painfull contract that was.

[PeteH]

1 minute ago, Peter Truman said:

Korean steel late 60’s was the worst I’ve seen

Bloody Hell!. and I actually sailed on ships built there (Ulsan).!