Cylinder head to block studs, seized. Lessons learned…

[Roger]

I have a six pot ME-engine from a MK II saloon that has been outdoors for many years, and I started to do an autopsy so that I can see what parts I might be able to use. It is seized and I did not expect that the cylinder head would come of easy. But this one has really tested my patience so maybe someone on the forum doing the same job might find some useful tips here. There are at least plenty of embarrassing failures in this thread that you might find entertaining…

I started with adding a few drops of phosforic acid around the studs and let the chemicals do some work for a couple of days, adding a few drops every day.

My first option regarding tools is usually the “double nut” technique and a few studs actually came out that way (thanks to the acid actually penetrating all the way down to the block). Next plan was the “roller stud extractor” with ratchet (+extension) which successfully removed a few studs more. Then I tried to use an impact wrench on the “roller extractor” on the ones I could not remove with a ratchet. Bad idea. It broke and the stud was also severly damaged.

The extractor recommended by uncle Pete is unforthunately not available in stores here and ordering online is a beauracratic battle with customs that can go on for weeks, so I bought a Bacho stud extractor instead. It cost an arm and a leg but it cracked and into pieces on my first attempt. Fortunately the store gave me a full refund. Very disappointing. Things made in Sweden or by a Swedish company usually have good quality. But this “Swedish” tool was clearly made of chinesium.

Welding is not an option in my garage since it is way to crowded and filled with flammable stuff, and it was minus 15 degrees Celsius here (5 F) about a week ago which is a bit chilly even for me so no welding outdoor either. Now its raining, but welding a nut on the stud is probably my next move, weather permitting.

Running out of options I tried to lift the cylinder head using a bar to spread the force. Someone said that a six cylinder Triumph engine has the same weight as a small planet so the thought was to leave it hanging one centimeter above the floor and hoping that gravity, fatigue and phosporic acid would do the work over time. Still waiting for the engine block to fall…

Current status: 9 of 12 studs removed 3 now badly damaged studs remain. Waiting for spring and / or good weather so that I can try to weld nuts on the remaining studs or earth gravity to do the work for me. I Will make an attempt to order the praised extractor, it would be a great christmas present to myself, But I’m afraid it will not arrive to this remote island during this year.

Suggestions, comments and moral support in general will be appreciated…

Br Roger

[Colin Lindsay]

That stud extractor is one that from personal experience I've learned to avoid. 

My Herald Estate bamboozled me for ages with one stud that refused to move, and the head would not lift off around it. It was an alternative application of penetrating oil, long wait, lots of heat from a gas torch, long wait, then repeat, that did it eventually. Gravity will help, but to avoid damage there's no short term fix.

[dougbgt6]

Yes.

I tried a Bacho type when my head wouldn't come off, didn't break it, it just didn't work, chewed up the stud. Double nut? That hadn't worked either, rounded off the nuts. Finally Uncle Pete's arrived at my door with his "never been known to fail" impact driver. It didn't work.

We took the jaws off the impact driver and attached it to a 3 foot breaker bar. With both of us heaving on the bar, success! We had to do it for every stud and with all out the head came away easily. We retired to the pub.

The odd thing is there was no rust at all, the studs had simply been put in by a gorilla. 

Doug

[trigolf]

I had the same problem with my Vit, many years ago. Had the car hanging from the garage roof, but no joy. I eventually managed to get all but 3 studs out. By then, there was a small amount of 'rock' in the head. I kept on clouting the sides of the head with a large shot loaded plastic hammer and a lump hammer with a block of wood between. After about a week it finally slid up the remaining studs after VERY carefully inserting a large pry bar where the engine number is stamped and levering VERY carefully to avoid damage to the head face.  

Gav

[Roger]

1 hour ago, Mathew said:

I know you said too much around to weld but you can shield your welding as its a small area

Yes, I could try to shield the welding area, but the problem is that my welding skills are “limited” (understatement) so I have to practice on other things first in order to find the proper settings and improve my skills a bit before I can weld good enough on a nut/stud. I did not mention the most embarrassing failure: I did drag out the engine in the snow (only minus 12 Celsius / 10 F then…) and I was hoping that by a miracle I would successfully weld on a nut on my very first attempt in a minute or two before freezing to death. At that temperature I did not spend a lot of time practicing welding outdoors, and the result was so ugly and weak that the nut fell of the stud almost just by poking at it. No, I will not upload a picure of that weld… I have seen two buildings burn down to the ground here in my town after welding on cars. I would have to sleep in the garage after welding or be worried sick that one small pice of red hot metal escaped my shield. I prefer to wait for better weather, better safe than sorry.

[Roger]

1 hour ago, Mathew said:

Heat? Can you warm up the studs? Might break the seal

Thanks for your suggestions Mathew, yes I will definitely try heat also when I can do some work outdoors again

[Pete Lewis]

my first experience of this was a mk1 2000 ,back in the 80s  with a tube in the ports and a lump of wood on a trolley jack lifted the car off the deck this was just one stud

as a small gap appeared i cut the stud with a  protected hacksaw blade and removed the head  the remains unscrewed with fingers from the block 

but a sledge hammer and punch needed to extricate the remains of the stud from the head 

Pete

[Nick Jones]

All sounds very familiar. I’ve done two just like this. Reckon it’s even the same 3 studs. Manifold side, back one, front one and middle one. Ones most cooked by exhaust heat. 
 

It certainly helps if the ambient temperature is much warmer and the head itself is warmed up. With these three last studs I have always ended up welding nuts on with a really hot MIG weld and then beating hard on the end of the stud/nut with a big hammer before attacking them with a 4 foot breaker bar. Both times two came out and one snapped flush with the head face. With just one left you can turn the whole head with the stud still in it and unscrew it from the block….. much easier if it’s the middle one!

Thats with the engine out of course….. engine in, you are still in big trouble.

Many years ago we hung a whole Vitesse Mk1 car up by its cylinder head over night. Just two studs (and only 3/8”) left. It was still hanging in the morning (I won that bet being a miserable pessimist!). However, some beating on the ends of the stud with a big hammer, while still hanging did finally get it moving.

Good luck…,,

[Peter Truman]

well what do you reckon my chances are with a 68 Mk2 Vitesse I've had since 70 and it's never had the engine out or head off, Buckley's and None?

If Covid persists I might as a project I might see if I can undo the rear and centre studs!

[Colin Lindsay]

This is the one that caused me so much bother on the 1200 head; the top was rounded off by the stud pullers and it was just totally seized into the block, but because of the state it was in the head wouldn't lift off over it either. I just couldn't believe that the head would raise by a clear 1/2 inch then no further. It took a serious amount of penetrating oil, the rust-dissolving stuff like Wurth, before it eventually gave.

[JohnD]

Roger,

I fear that phosphoric acid is not the right one to choose for this purpose!   I see that the bottle is labelled "Rust Remover" but that is false.      Phosphoric is unique among weak organic acids in that it's iron compound, iron phosphate is almost insoluble!    Makes agod surface on parts for painting, but not to dissolve rust from around seized head studs.

You might do better with any other organic acid, acetic or citric for instance, but don't bother with vinegar or lemon juice!

Good luck!

John

 

[Roger]

8 hours ago, JohnD said:

You might do better with any other organic acid, acetic or citric for instance

Thanks John, I made an inventory of my chemicals and I found I two that contains mostly citric acid. I will try them and let them work for a couple of days. The CRC stuff is a concentrate with 40% phosphoric acid and it did seem to have some kind of effect on two of the studs. They had a small "cavity" or cracks between the head and the stud so I could clearly see how the acid poured down and dissapeared. The problem with the remaining studs is that what ever chemicals I try to use it stays on top of the cylinder head. But I have plenty of bottles left to experiment with, citrus acid next! 🙂

 

[Roger]

This is the broken extractor. Kamasa is another brand that I have been satisfied with in the past. But the rollers where way too soft on this one and the diameter on the rollers was quickly reduced a lot and they fell out. The cost of broken tools in this "project" is frustrating.

 

[Roger]

9 hours ago, Nick Jones said:

Many years ago we hung a whole Vitesse Mk1 car up by its cylinder head over night. Just two studs (only 3/8”) left. It was still hanging in the morning

Interesting that several of you have lifted the car by pulling the cylinder head upwards without removing it. Then I know for sure that the weight of the engine will certainly not separate the head from the block even if these engines are indeed heavy!

Thanks everyone for sharing your knowledge. /Roger.

[NonMember]

Another vote for the welded nut here - but you must put your welder on its hottest setting and be brutal with it.

Failing that, build up a barrier round each stud with blu-tak (or some sort of glue and tube) so that your acid-based cleaner can be loaded into a proper puddle that stays on the stud overnight to soak in. A dribble from a syringe isn't going to cut it if the crud is blocking the hole.

[Pete Lewis]

my favourite  this can be used with an impact or hand wrench  the jaws will damage soft threads but it will never let go

sold in many places 

[Roger]

16 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

my favourite  this can be used with an impact or hand wrench  the jaws will damage soft threads but it will never let go

I have been really nice and kind to everyone this year so I will ask Santa Claus if I can have one for Christmas 😇

[Colin Lindsay]

2 hours ago, Roger said:

I have been really nice and kind to everyone this year so I will ask Santa Claus if I can have one for Christmas 😇

The studs say:  "NO!!"

[Pete Lewis]

sorry getting a bit old to be a Stud 

Pete

[Nick Jones]

6 hours ago, Colin Lindsay said:

The studs say:  "NO!!"

At this point Roger hates the studs with a passion and they have no vote 😛

[Roger]

Progress report: The snow has finally melted away enough to give me some space to weld outdoors so today I made a new attempt to weld on nuts on the seized studs I have been swearing at for a couple of months now. Last time I tried it was so cold that I did everything too fast. This time I prepared the nut properly by making some "space" for the weld and I also took away all rust and oil to make sure I had a good clean surface for my welding. I only have a 240V small MIG without gas so I weld with flux core wire, but this time I managed to produce a decent weld (well, according to my standard...).

Then I used a 60 cm long breaker bar, main problem was to keep the engine still. But one of the studs finally came loose. Victory at last!

The other two nuts broke at the weld, so no joy. I think I have to crank up the voltage to get a hotter weld next time I try. Well at least some progress!
I also tried to use an impact wrench. No sucess. I probably just made small cracks in my weld so that it snappet when I used the breaker bar.

[Pete Lewis]

if you can raise the head enough the get a hacksaw blade in the  gap   you can saw thro the stud easy and when the heads off punch out the stud witha drift and club hammer

ive done this twice on offending studs  its  blasted annoying when the threaded remains undo with the fingers  

stick some stiff card around the blade to prevent scratching the faces 

Pete

[Roger]

15 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

if you can raise the head

I have'nt figured out how to raise it without destroying it. It seems to be welded to the block. I will try one more time welding nuts on the two remaining studs. I have not added heat to the equation yet, but my neighbour is a plumber and he has acetylene gas welding equipment. I might ask him to heat up the head next time. Never give up...

[Colin Lindsay]

Have you tried the old trick of removing the spark plugs, rotating the piston to its' lowest point then feeding rope into the chamber? Pack it with as much rope as it will take - then as the piston rises the theory is that the rope compresses and pushes the head up, most importantly without damaging anything.

[Roger]

I would try the rope trick if the engine turned, but this one is seized.