Pete Lewis Posted January 27 Report Share Posted January 27 AidanT started a question on this way back in 2020 but following a head rebuild on a local 2500s which suffered compression loss on No 5 we refaced and cleaned the head die nutted the studs to clean the threads all looks like new and yes its a recessed bore and payen with a tab but now have between 0 and 50psi across the engine the common denominator is the blasted gasket TLD has a post about not fit for purpose since production transferred from UK to Belgium I dont normally need help but any others had problems with Payen ???? this should be a simple whip it off clean and refit ,well its all buttoned up but now hopeless .not able to spurn a pop or bang Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougbgt6 Posted January 27 Report Share Posted January 27 Oh, what's gone wrong here? Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted January 27 Report Share Posted January 27 (edited) Valve not seating? Have you tried adding oil? Warped head? 50psi sounds very low, but compression gauges vary. What is the progression along the block? JOhn Edited January 27 by JohnD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted January 27 Author Report Share Posted January 27 old gasket had 120 with no5 an=t 0 new gasket two at 50 rest all 0 valve seats all cleaned and lightly refaced , all sound and not in a poor sate easy to tidy and re seat having done more heads than i care to remember this makes no sense as belgium payen seem to have a poor reputation its expected that its the gasket is the common factor in this conundrum its a mk2 2,5 engine recessed bores gasket with a tab at the back never in my experience has a simple gasket swap ended up as a disaster the old gasket has signs of blow by , most nuts quite loose , the head will have to come off and see what the heck is going on here there is no need to reface the head its as flat as a pancake stud threads al die nut cleaned , washers and nuts all good. and yes we have tapper clearances at 0.010" Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted January 28 Report Share Posted January 28 13 hours ago, Pete Lewis said: old gasket had 120 with no5 an=t 0 new gasket two at 50 rest all 0 Pete As you say, that's a disaster. And easy to blame on the gasket, but that would be like blaming the bathwater, when baby disappears down the plughole. With respect, Pete, I'd suspect faulty installation or previous damage. "The old gasket has signs of blow by , most nuts quite loose "! Could there have been erosion of the block face or head? And, "there is no need to reface the head its as flat as a pancake" To a true engineer's straight edge? John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted January 28 Report Share Posted January 28 22 minutes ago, JohnD said: And, "there is no need to reface the head its as flat as a pancake" I made pancakes for breakfast this morning and they really wern't all that flat 😁 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted January 28 Author Report Share Posted January 28 the wifes pancakes are often showing burnt out fire rings !!! pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted January 28 Author Report Share Posted January 28 1 hour ago, JohnD said: To a true engineer's straight edge? yes john i do have a goodly selection of engineering tools and measuring devices lts not like Ive never done this before is it i understand the bath water syndrome but the car has run ok for a good few years till No5 gave out its pretty grubby and unmolested original years of un touched grime the head nuts were def down to deformed washers we have all seen that before . def feeling a bit stumped on this and that is somewhat unusual Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve P Posted January 28 Report Share Posted January 28 Any visible difference on the gasket from the old one Pete?, who supplied it?. I have an unused Payen in my garage from a good few years ago if you would like to compare. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougbgt6 Posted January 28 Report Share Posted January 28 1 hour ago, JohnD said: easy to blame on the gasket, but that would be like blaming the bathwater, when baby disappears down the plughole. But, it IS the water that syphons the baby down the hole! Although it has the tab are you sure it has the recessed bits? Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted January 28 Author Report Share Posted January 28 well its not removed yet to see if the rings are running ring round us and there aint no babies but have seen the adverts for erectile that last up to 36 hours ...What !!!!! Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougbgt6 Posted January 28 Report Share Posted January 28 A 36 hour advert! Wow! Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted January 28 Author Report Share Posted January 28 thats hard to come to terms with Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted January 28 Report Share Posted January 28 Pete, I did offer my respect to your experience, but truly, I feel that you must seek another reason than just the gasket for the lack of any compression! Please tell us wat you find when you take the head off again. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted January 28 Author Report Share Posted January 28 (edited) Hi John , apart from all pistons go up and down antics of low cranking needed replacement starter fuel wont prime sparks leaping out the coil head accuspark only tiggering 3 of the 6 screw missing from rocker /pedestal location none of which has anything to do with zero compression all the rockers rock will check valve timing but she ran on 5/6 before we took the head off and there was little work required to clean that up it makes no sense , the gasket is the common denominator ...or its Me and there are online reports of payen giving troubles from spitfire to stag across the whole car range since production left the UK watch this space Pete Edited January 28 by Pete Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Clark Posted January 30 Report Share Posted January 30 I was told by a reputable Triumph trader a few years ago that Payen gaskets were no longer made to the same standard. Chris Witor and Canley Classics stock high quality gaskets which are not from Payen. That said, it seems very unlikely that a new Payen head gasket would fail to seal from the moment it was installed. As has been suggested, I would be looking for another cause than the head gasket. It's a pain, but the head will need to be removed again. Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted January 30 Author Report Share Posted January 30 yes Nigel theres lots of negative comments on the 'net' about payen so replacement is coming from Canley's head comes off this week end i hear the ideas its maybe something else but ....what there is little to go wrong with what was a running engine having a gasket swap and a light valve/chamber clean up its got me stumped and thats unusual the only common thing is the gasket if i fitted the head with chocolate spread i would expect better results and ive said the pistons are going up,down ok , you can feel a light puff from the plug hole but not enough to make it work Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted February 3 Author Report Share Posted February 3 right Today head off fitted the canley supplied gasket , retorqued , tappet reset, timed, and she runs fine compare old gasket and the canley gasket with the Payen from Rimmers and the problem is evident the payen gasket Fire rings are half the width required to seal against the clamping load of the head so this confirms the Triumph Payen Gasket is not fit for purpose , any purpose . the pic shows the wildly differing half the width rings there's a lesson for us all here Pete 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted February 3 Report Share Posted February 3 How did those widths compare with the slots in the block? When you think about thats a crazy design and I wonder if any other manufacturer has gone down the same route as your really introducing a risk due to the tolerances of the gasket fire rings being critical... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted February 3 Author Report Share Posted February 3 the stand off is about the same (not measured) the depth to locate in the recess seems about the same its the fact the payen rings only cover the recess there is no real clamp on the periphery of the narrow ring Canley ( well done ) and Chris Witor say they only sell good gasket there is no brand on the canley packaging if you search the net payen and its name seem to have lost it badly and if main suppliers are selling old branded gaskets ( ie rimmers) then there will be a lot of heartache for those that are on a wild goose chase Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted February 3 Report Share Posted February 3 Thank you, Pete! You have convinced me! Previously I would swear by Payens, but my faith is broken. Will you be writing to whoever makes "Payen" now, to tell them of your dissatisfaction at their poor product? John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougbgt6 Posted February 3 Report Share Posted February 3 Ha! Told you so. Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted February 3 Author Report Share Posted February 3 think thats down to the (Alan) member involved in this nightmare. Payen stop production around 2019 due to tooling worn out , got bought out by belgium co and tooling revamped , now under german ownership, internet has all the story but payen is not the same as the one that managed a good reputation a most frustrating repair where you start to question your own experience /ability with a waste of time and money and alan paid rimmers a premium to get the payen as he felt they were worth it how wrong can you be , a classis case of being clever after the event but who goes searching gasket problems happy new year Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannyb Posted February 4 Report Share Posted February 4 This is worrying, I'm waiting for full set of gaskets and seals for my newly rebuilt spit 1500. Ordered from Rimmers a couple of weeks ago. It's held up waiting for the Payen gaskets to arrive. I'm now thinking I should have gone for the cheaper option. Danny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
68vitesse Posted February 4 Report Share Posted February 4 Even buying new old stock you have to be careful as the packet can contain a mixture of old and newly manufactured gaskets. If they won't let you open to check walk away?. Regards Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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