Spitfire 1500 Engine Rebuild

[AidanT]

I purchased an electronic torque adapter/tester As expensive as a cheap torque wrench but allows me to use any wrench to torque up 

Aidan

https://www.toolstop.co.uk/index.php?option=shop&page=shop.product_details&product_id=57299&l=uk&utm_source=google&utm_medium=base&gclid=CjwKCAiAsejRBRB3EiwAZft7sN0jy6Ut4QS9FZaUoAFvuAUaks70pjFh23kNqdn3xHm-sqfm1-7KdBoCpPoQAvD_BwE

[Guest]

Those units are very good Aidan, a couple of friends have them and are more than happy with the performance. In fact one of the friends lives in the Netherlands and could not source a unit locally for common sense money. It was cheaper for me to buy here and send it to him.

The alternative, which I have, is digital Clarke TW - got it from Machine Mart and was a decent price. I have had it checked a couple of times and spot-on readings: https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/clarke-pro237-12-drive-digital-electronic-to/?da=1&TC=GS-040218237&gclid=CjwKCAiA1O3RBRBHEiwAq5fD_AczcSC0aB_AEcf_20z8pAreNQdK0FaNDWFbbw4T1KYo4WjdA5BuPRoCr4YQAvD_BwE

Depends what takes your fancy.

Regards.

Richard.

[Pete Lewis]

You can self calibrate 

Clamp drive in vice

Measure a know distance down the handle  

Then add a known weight

So example 25lb at 2 ft gives 50 lbft.

50 at 1 ft gives 50lbft

Make the handle longer and less weight is needed 

Eg  12.5 lb at 4 ft gives 50lbft  

So   afew bricks or bag of sand will get you  result ,  even use a decent spring balance scales ,  

Stand on the bathroom scales and watch the load  reduce by a known amount as you press the wrench   

[Anglefire]

That all makes sense Pete - I'll have a little test of my little one later. 

Well, I've refitted the head, torqued it down and fitted the manifolds and water pump topday.

I've removed the mullered fuel pump stud - but the new one won't go in - I'm hoping my dad has a suitable 5/16 UNF tap to clean out the threads - otherwise it's another essential tool to buy!

So its pretty much ready to go in - just got to refit the dizzy - though not much point doing that until I've spun up the oil pump.

I've also got to get a new nut for one of the rocker pedestals - stripped on refitting and I don't have a spare which is annoying - also got to set the tappets - but until the last bolt is in I won't bother.

[Guest]

Are you sure that the mangled thread is Imperial ??

A PO may have fitted a metric stud in error / on purpose because there was a thread issue to begin with. This might / will cause an issue when you tap it again and the tap thread is incorrect; I would certainly check the thread type on the stud you are replacing first to confirm if it is I or M before you go tapping.

[dougbgt6]

AF,

Don't forget to re-torque the head bolts after a couple of hundred miles. Did mine and then the tappets were WAY out! 

Doug

[Anglefire]

43 minutes ago, classiclife said:

Are you sure that the mangled thread is Imperial ??

A PO may have fitted a metric stud in error / on purpose because there was a thread issue to begin with. This might / will cause an issue when you tap it again and the tap thread is incorrect; I would certainly check the thread type on the stud you are replacing first to confirm if it is I or M before you go tapping.

I can't see an insert in the block TBH - and the stud that came out is imperial.

My dad has come up trumps (I think!) with a 5/16" unf tap - most of the ones he has from his dad or his old neighbour are nearly all whitworth BSF or KEN (Which I think refers to the model engineering 40tpi rather than the original owner of the taps and dies  )

The tappet gap is a bit bigger than standard with the newman cam - though I'm buggered if I can find where it says that now!

[Guest]

Well that's good news Mark, at least you know what you are dealing with.

Sorry - cannot help with the Newman cam gapping.

[Anglefire]

Well the tap worked - I had 2 - a taper and non taper (Square end?) anyway, the non taper was the wrong thread - it was close and to be fair it wasn't marked UNF but when I compared the two threads it looked the same - but a nut wouldn't run down it, unlike the other one - but anyway, the taper one ran up the threads lovely and the new stud went in a dream

Fuel pump all now mounted too  

[Pete Lewis]

Pedestal nuts get stripped when some misguided  operator  torques them up as head nuts 

Std 3/8unf max 29- 31lbft  , and probably less on alloy pedestals , (sorry books in the cold nosun lounge )

Pete

 

[Anglefire]

According to one of the websites, the 1500 is 32-34lb/ft - I've not looked in my new Haynes manual as Father Christmas hasn't arrived yet   (I have an older one that says it covers the 1500 - but doesn't cover the engine!)  

[Pete Lewis]

My triumph produced manuals show all 3/8"unf  pedestals  nuts as 24-26lbft   bit lower than a std hard fixing ( as I would expect)

From years of developing torque control on truck assemble.

Pete

[Anglefire]

The Triumph Spitfire torque site says : 

Rocker pedestal nut to cylinder head

24-26 GT6, 26-34 GT6Mk3, 28-30 Spits (not 1500), 32-34 1500

3/8 UNF x 3.09 stud

Tbh - I don't think its that critical - the 3 have gone to 32Ib/ft ok - and when I get the forth (It will probably come off the old engine for now!) then I'll take that to 32 as well just for consistancy - the studs are hardened as far as I can tell - the one that the nut had stripped on once I'd got the bits of nut thread unpeeled from the stud it was good as new!

Now, I don't know the grade of the nuts, but found this on T'internet - so it must be true!

GRADE 5				GRADE 8
Fine Thread				Fine Thread
Size	Clamp Load	Plain (ft. lbs.)	Plated	Size	Clamp Load	Plain (ft. lbs.)	Plated (ft. lbs.)
1/4-28 (.250)	2325	10	87 in lbs.	1/4-28 (.250)	3263	14	10
5/16-24 (.3125)	3675	19	14 ft lbs.	5/16-24 (.3125)	5113	27	20
3/8-24 (.375)	5588	35	26 ft lbs.	3/8-24 (.375)	7875	49	37
7/16-20 (.4375)	7575	55	41 ft lbs.	7/16-20 (.4375)	10650	78	58
1/2-20 (.500)	10200	85	64 ft lbs.	1/2-20 (.500)	14400	120	90
9/16-18 (.5625)	12975	122	91 ft lbs.	9/16-18 (.5625)	18300	172	129
5/8-18 (.625)	16350	170	128 ft lbs.	5/8-18 (.625)	23025	240	180
3/4-16 (.750)	23775	297	223 ft lbs.	3/4-16 (.750)	33600	420	315
7/8-14 (.875)	32475	474	355 ft lbs.	7/8-9 (.875)	45825	668	501
1-12 (1.000)	42300	705	529 ft lbs.	1-12 (1.000)	59700	995	746
1-14 (1.000)	32275	721	541 ft lbs.	1-14 (1.000)	61125	1019	764
1 1/8-12 (1.125)	47475	890	668 ft lbs.	1 1/8-12 (1.125)	77025	1444	1083
1 1/4-12 (1.250)	59550	1241	930 ft lbs.	1 1/4-12 (1.250)	96600	2012	1509
1 3/8-12 (1.375)	72975	1672	1254 ft lbs.	1 3/8-12 (1.375)	118350	2712	2034
1 1/2-12 (1.500)	87750	2194	1645 ft lbs.	1 1/2-17 (1.500)	142275	3557	2668

 

[Gully]

Just in case someone happens across this thread when searching for info... The GT6 Haynes Manual and GT6/Vitesse Triumph Workshop Manual both state 24-26ft lb for the pedestal nuts irrespective of model of GT6 - think I'd follow those rather than a table off t'internet.

Gully

[Anglefire]

Gully, its not just any page I've got it off- its this one http://www.triumphspitfire.com/Torque.html - that and elsewhere they Haynes manual says the same - I'll know for sure when I open my new manual on Monday 

The above table was just something I found that confirmed the torque wasn't outside of the normal torque range for the bolt.

[Gully]

7 minutes ago, Anglefire said:

Gully, its not just any page I've got it off- its this one http://www.triumphspitfire.com/Torque.html - that and elsewhere they Haynes manual says the same - I'll know for sure when I open my new manual on Monday 

The above table was just something I found that confirmed the torque wasn't outside of the normal torque range for the bolt.

I'm not doubting that someone's gone to a lot of effort to produce the table you've linked - I simply wanted to highlight that the GT6 information isn't borne out by either of the manuals I own. Neither suggests the Mk3 has a different torque.

Gully

[Pete Lewis]

dont rely on internet and fact sheets developed by heck knows who

hanyes are brilliant at  typo's and mis quotes  triumphspitfire.com is just another magazine founded script of  facts, or fiction  ,  just stick to triumph engineering developed data  and you get whats intended .

whlst i dont have a specific 1500 manual all  with the common 3/8 pedestal stud nuts from the 948  1200, 13/60/ 1600 / 2ltr 200-2500

all are  the same 24 -26 lb ft

alloy onto  steel hard faces needs less torque that  steel/steel  mating surfaces 

 up it if you feel confident    and then  wonder why you have found  stripped nuts 

pete

[rogerguzzi]

On 12/22/2017 at 1:15 PM, Anglefire said:

I can't see an insert in the block TBH - and the stud that came out is imperial.

My dad has come up trumps (I think!) with a 5/16" unf tap - most of the ones he has from his dad or his old neighbour are nearly all whitworth BSF or KEN (Which I think refers to the model engineering 40tpi rather than the original owner of the taps and dies  )

The tappet gap is a bit bigger than standard with the newman cam - though I'm buggered if I can find where it says that now!

Hello Anglefire

                           Newman lists 0.014" inlet and 0.016" exhaust for all 1300/1500cc camshafts.

My Triumph Manual lists cylinder head 46ft/lb

Rocker pedestal 34ft/lb 3/8"unf x 3.09" stud

This is a 1500 cc manual AMK4329 by BL Cars Ltd 1979

Roger

ps I have just ordered a Newman camshaft but a PH2 as I am trying to built a bit more powerful engine!

[Pete Lewis]

 thanks Roger .if they upped the torque for just the dreaded 1500 then you need higher tensile nuts   same  used as for the head 

its the same evovled   pedestal on the 4 cyl  ,  why would the 1500 need more i wonder where that thinking came from   

pete

[dougbgt6]

Trust no one! 

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense" The Budda

Doug

[Anglefire]

Thanks Roger - buggered if I can find it - but glad that I’m also not going mad (well I might be!) and that it does exist. 

And that the torque setting for at least the 1500 is “correct” 

Pete the nuts look a bit longer than normal ones and are black - but being under the rocker cover and subject to hot oil, doesn’t mean a lot! I wondered if the head nuts would fit, though I thought I’d tried one of the old ones and it didn’t spin on - but not saying it’s not the same. 

[rogerguzzi]

Hello All 

                My Haynes manual says 45ft/lb 1150/1300 cc heads and 25ft/lb rocker pedestals big ends and mains are up as well?

Roger

[rogerguzzi]

57 minutes ago, rogerguzzi said:

Hello All 

                My Haynes manual says 45ft/lb 1150/1300 cc heads and 25ft/lb rocker pedestals big ends and mains are up as well?

Roger

Hello All

                A copy of the the  Spitfire 1500 manual.

You may have to turn your heads to the side but if turn them they would be smaller!

Roger

 

[Anglefire]

Thats very useful - Thanks Roger  

[Anglefire]

Gone to the next phase now. 

Took the old engine out this morning and put the rebuilt one back in this afternoon.

Couple of minor issued discovered along the way - the three studs on the top of the engine weren't fitted - my mistake should have noticed, but should go in easily enough.

Not all bell housing bolts are in - need to get some more as some are not in good nick whilst some are virtually new! Must admit I've changed quite a few bolts/nuts along the way and pretty much always changed them all in the "set" - So I'll get some more later - unless I can find some suitable ones in my spares boxes. A couple of the nuts were too short too - only holding on with a few threads.

Got to remove the rest of the old exhaust before refitting the manifolds (again!) - get some suitable antifreeze and replace the remaining rubber hoses.

Fit the new radiator - glad I bought a new one already as it is a bit knackered with a few sections of fins missing.

Not allowed to do any more on it tomorrow - but Tuesday is a very likely day to play