Darren Groves Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 2L MK1 Vitesse recently purchased (not by me) and the temp gauge reads around 2/3 to 3/4 when up to normal temp. Owner has had radiator recored, fitted new 82° Thermostat, temp sender, hoses, heater valve and flushed rest of waterways but still reads hot. It's come to me to have a variety of jobs done, but to look at this also. The engine bay didn't seem particularly hot, so far we have tried alternative Thermostat, Temp Sender, & gauge. Replaced voltage stabiliser. The top hose gets warm, but the bottom hose is noticeably cooler. I've used a infrared thermometer and it confirms the top hose & top of radiator is much warmer that the bottom hose and bottom of radiator. Hoses into and out of Smith's Heater Valve are hot and you get heat inside the car. Took off the water pump expecting to see it in poor condition, but that looked in good shape. When changing the thermostat, there was no water in the top hose, the natural water level is at the thermostat. This is a thing in both Herald & Vitesse as the radiator filler cap is lower that the highest point of the cooling system, so I did raise the front and run with the cap off and fill as much as I could, but again no difference. Am I missing something obvious here or is there anything else worth looking at? Darren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 I did a similar job for a friend years ago. He complained it was always running hot. I first fitted a capillary gauge, that I had tested in boiling water (and read 100) Took for a drive etc, and it read at a steady 80-85 degrees. So bang on correct. I then tried a variety of senders and gauges I had in a box until I got a combo that read bang in the middle. Chap thought I was a genius! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren Groves Posted March 13, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 Right from the start I have felt it was a gauge reading high, but the difference in temps at the top and the bottom of the rad seemed odd. The 2 senders I have used on it are black near the spade connector, but the one in my Spitfire project is red...may try that one to see if the colour does actually mean something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 Hello Darren, I had a similar experience on a friends car - not a Triumph. The correct temp sensor should be red, but the gauge was reading far too high (in the red) and the electric fan was not cutting in - slightly disconcerting !! I changed to black, and the reading read correctly on the gauge - the car was running fine coolant temperature wise and as such the fan was not required to cut in. To date I have not been able to understand why the incorrect temp sensor was actually the "correct one" to use. In life, not everything is understandable !!! Regards. Richard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 Your right about the rad filler cap being lower than the heater but Ive found that on the first run after system filling the heater should fill (I achieve this by opening and closing the heater water control valve a few times) and then should stay filled by syphon effect. The rad might then need a top up but the system should remain stable unless theres a leak somewhere. If small this can be undetectable under pressure as the water leaking flashes off to steam however on cooling the slight vacuum produced draws air in which eventually causes the heater to lose prime. If the hot running is real it could be causes by fuel mixture. I had air ingress via the carb spindles which gave a weak mixture which I couldnt adjust for and made the engine produce more heat than it should..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren Groves Posted March 13, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 18 minutes ago, johny said: Your right about the rad filler cap being lower than the heater but Ive found that on the first run after system filling the heater should fill (I achieve this by opening and closing the heater water control valve a few times) and then should stay filled by syphon effect. The rad might then need a top up but the system should remain stable unless theres a leak somewhere. If small this can be undetectable under pressure as the water leaking flashes off to steam however on cooling the slight vacuum produced draws air in which eventually causes the heater to lose prime. If the hot running is real it could be causes by fuel mixture. I had air ingress via the carb spindles which gave a weak mixture which I couldnt adjust for and made the engine produce more heat than it should..... You get heat in the car and the hoses to and from the heater valve are hot. The filler is quite a bit lower than the highest point of the top hose and thermostat housing, so that was more of a concern. There are no leaks and the rad maintains it's level fine. The car was running a bit too rich when it came in so we have weakened off a bit, but that's had no impact on the temp reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 ok how does the car behave when you stop after a good run? Does the temperature increase rapidly on tickover or stay the same - this can be a good indicator of how much spare 'capacity' there is in the cooling system and whether you are actually running hot.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 There are only two temperature senders Stabilised GTR108 mostly black Non stabilised 121997 mostly green Get the them mixed and you get hot readings Smiths did red green, brown and black to identify type and voltage but generic makes seem all black To bleed the high point just release the top heater hose enough to let air out , do it hot engine running .then top up when cooled . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren Groves Posted March 13, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, johny said: ok how does the car behave when you stop after a good run? Does the temperature increase rapidly on tickover or stay the same - this can be a good indicator of how much spare 'capacity' there is in the cooling system and whether you are actually running hot.... The temp goes up normally and peaks at the high reading, no rapid changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren Groves Posted March 13, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 5 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said: There are only two temperature senders Stabilised GTR108 mostly black Non stabilised 121997 mostly green Get the them mixed and you get hot readings Smiths did red green, brown and black to identify type and voltage but generic makes seem all black Will try the red one out of my Spitty tomorrow.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 Voltage stabiliser smiths or modern electronic??? Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 I have some red ones , green and black aquired from misguided fitting is the spit stabilised , ? Hope both have slow needles ie thermo bi metal gauges If someone has fitted old waggy needle no stabilised moving iron gauges you cant win Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren Groves Posted March 13, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 17 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said: Voltage stabiliser smiths or modern electronic??? Pete Was changed from original type to solid state one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppyman Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 Why not just use one of these to be on the safe side? I keep one in my Dolly 1850 just in case. Temp gauge was coming close to red in traffic last summer turned out to be 89Degrees. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Handheld-LCD-Digital-Laser-Thermometer-Temperature-Infrared-Non-Contact-IR-Gun/142456227542?hash=item212b0d86d6:g:DEsAAOSwKoFa6VIo Dirt cheap as well. Tony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 Sounds like an instrumentation issue to me. I don’t understand your issue with the radiator? It’s meant to cool the water so The bottom hose is supposed to be cooler than the top one. The problem comes when it isn’t! I don’t think it’s you problem here but sometimes the inside of the pump housing corrodes and the parts that are meant to be close to the pump impeller are not and the pump doesn’t pump very well. the IR thermometer is a very convenient tool but note that they are not very accurate. I prefer digital thermometer in the top of the rad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren Groves Posted March 14, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2019 8 hours ago, poppyman said: Why not just use one of these to be on the safe side? I keep one in my Dolly 1850 just in case. Temp gauge was coming close to red in traffic last summer turned out to be 89Degrees. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Handheld-LCD-Digital-Laser-Thermometer-Temperature-Infrared-Non-Contact-IR-Gun/142456227542?hash=item212b0d86d6:g:DEsAAOSwKoFa6VIo Dirt cheap as well. Tony. I have, as mentioned in my original post. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanMi Posted March 14, 2019 Report Share Posted March 14, 2019 Probably just a poor modern repro sender. When I rebuilt my original 1147 engine I put a new sender in, started to get very worried when first run as the temp gauge went way too high but all felt perfect. Sourced a new old stock temp sensor and problem solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted March 14, 2019 Report Share Posted March 14, 2019 Darren, Does the solid state stab. Control the voltage at 10.5 volts ,??? Ive got a smiths test box but youre a bit far away.... You dont need any extra Vs to make a problem with readings Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigfella70 Posted March 14, 2019 Report Share Posted March 14, 2019 Could be worthwhile re flushing the cooling system including the heater matrix. Despite rad being re-cored etc, if there was sediment elsewhere that's then washed through and partially blocked flow through the radiator could this explain the anomaly of the top hose being empty etc. Just a thought as a possible course of action to negate that side of things? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppyman Posted March 14, 2019 Report Share Posted March 14, 2019 3 hours ago, Darren Groves said: I have, as mentioned in my original post. Cheers Sorry Darren, that will teach me to read the post properly...... Tony. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted March 14, 2019 Report Share Posted March 14, 2019 there was a a course on here to read backwards , till i fell down the stairs !!!!leaving the little room its easy to get enveloped into writing things in duplicate , lots of Tees shirts for that Pete 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted March 14, 2019 Report Share Posted March 14, 2019 Last year the temp gauge in my 13/60 started to read high but all seemed to be correct otherwise, not actually too hot. I suspected the stabiliser so replaced it with a solid state version, gauge started to read at an acceptable level again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave.vitesse Posted March 14, 2019 Report Share Posted March 14, 2019 I agree with Nick, it sounds like an instrumentation issue. The gauges are old and of doubtful calibration. For the electronically/electrical techies there are test resistors you can substitute for the temp/fuel sender to test the gauge. That is if you have ensured the 10 volt voltage stabiliser is working correctly first. The values are - Full/Hot = 20 Ohms. (As not a preferred value, use Two 10 Ohms in series) Or 18 Ohm preferred value, but may read slightly high. Half/Normal = 72 Ohms. (As not a preferred value, use Four 18 Ohms in series) Or 68 Ohm preferred value, but may read slightly high. Empty/Cold = 270 Ohms. This is a preferred value.* * A preferred value is one that is available off the shelf and readily available. I have known black paint being applied to the temp sender to reduce the reading to a more correct value. I was told by a Standard Triumph Technician that the green temp senders were used in cars being exported to Switzerland. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted March 14, 2019 Report Share Posted March 14, 2019 james paddock show green ones cia gauge make all the smiths parts you need one of these TT1003-38B IND 3/8"BSP THREAD,1/4" LUCAR TERMINAL TT1201-2N IND 1/2 NPTF DATCON LOW EARTH RETURN TT1201-38N IND 3/8 NPTF DATCON LOW EARTH RETURN TT1201-4N IND 1/4 NPTF DATCON LOW EARTH RETURN TT1201-8N IND 1/8 NPTF DATCON LOW EARTH RETURN TT1203-2N IND 1/2 NPTF 240-33R EARTH RETURN TT1203-38N IND 3/8 NPTF 240-33R EARTH RETURN TT1307-2N IND 1/2"NPTF 60-165 DEG.C 10X32 UNF STUD 658054 TT1307-8N IND 1/8" NPTF 60-165 DEG.C 10X32 UNF THREAD 694003 TT2001-2N IND 1/2 NPTF 240-33R INSULATED RETURN TT3001-38N INTL 40-120C 3/8 NPTF 287-23 Ohms M12GTO TT3001-58U INTL 40-120C 5/8 UNF 287-23 Ohms TT3001-8N INTL 40-120C 1/8-27NPT 287-23 Ohms TT3001-M10 INTL 40-120C M10 THREAD LUCAR 287-23 Ohms TT3005-38N INTL 50-150 C 3/8 NPTF 323-18.6 Ohms TT3005-58U INTL 50-150 C 5/8 UNF 323-18.6 Ohms TT3005-8N INTL 50-150C 1/8-27NPT 323-18.6 Ohms TT3005-M10 INTL 50-150C M10 323-18.6 Ohms TT3005-M14 INTL 50-150C M14 323-18.6 Ohms 90261059 TT4001-M14 OTHER M14 x 1.5 VDO MATCH INSULATED RTN TT4802-00A JAGUAR 5/8 UNF BIM 40-120 C NJ962 TT4803-00A CLASSIC 5/8 UNF FLAT SEATING.BI METAL RESISTANCE DAC2583 TT4803-01 OTHER TEMP SEND 5/8 18UNF 38-56091 TT4803-04 OTHER TEMP TRANSMITTER 6U-6374 TT4806-00 OTHER 2/8 18UNF 70.017 TT4815-00 OTHER TEMP. TRANSMITTER PRC4372 TT4816-00 OTHER 1/2" NPTF THREAD.2 X6.35mm. BLADE CONNECTORS U0034604 TT5803-00 OTHER TEMP TRANSMITTER 600413 TT6001-M12 MARINE TEMP SENDER M12 THREAD IR DSO/110/0/A/B TT6805-00 OTHER TEMP SEND 5/8 18 UNF 6200281000 TT6809-00 OTHER TEMP.TRANSMITTER ACU7450 TT6811-01 CLASSIC 1/8 NPTF 230-33 Ohms TT6811-03 CATERHAM 1/8 NPTF 1158-44 ohms B 71167 TT6811-04 OTHER AIR CORED 9079253 TT6811-06 OTHER TEMP TRANSMITTER 7723470 TT6818-00 OTHER TEMP TRANSDUCER A082N4040F TT6820-00 OTHER PT1000 SENDER 5.7DIA X 40 LONG.3.5MCABLE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave.vitesse Posted March 14, 2019 Report Share Posted March 14, 2019 Pete, in the 2 Litre Workshop manual only one temp sender type is given and that is Smiths TT4802/00 Stanpart 137705. And one temp gauge is given as Smiths BT2204/07 Stanpart 145002. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now