cliff.b Posted January 27, 2022 Report Share Posted January 27, 2022 I foolishly forgot to use the choke when trying to start my Spitfire yesterday and so turned it over multiple times before it started turning very slowly and then just the solenoid click. Realised my mistake, assumed I had flattened the battery so tried a jump start from other car, but still turning very slowly or just clicking. Put on charge overnight and checked, cleaned & tightened all connections, but still the same. Got my meter out and saw voltage at started +ve terminal same as battery when cranking, also lights not dimming. Finally ran jumper cables direct from battery to block & starter but no difference. I'm thinking it's the starter itself but would appreciate any opinions. Also, if it is the starter, is it likely to be a clean up & new brushes or should I be expecting to replace it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougbgt6 Posted January 27, 2022 Report Share Posted January 27, 2022 Cliff, Try battery to starter +ve AND -ve with a pair of jump leads. This will tell you if the starter is OK, or not. Doug 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain T Posted January 27, 2022 Report Share Posted January 27, 2022 I'm far from an electrical wizard (but I'm learning) I agree with you sounds like the starter has a problem. Did you have a slow turning starter before this failure? Iain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Lindsay Posted January 27, 2022 Report Share Posted January 27, 2022 Doug just beat me to it!! That's the place to start (no pun intended!) - run a cable directly to the starter from the battery and see how it turns. If it turns fine then the fault is in the connections; clean up all cables and terminals and check the solenoid; they can gum up alarmingly inside. Last one I dismantled was bright green inside. You can also remove the starter and loosen the end plate enough to get a jet of contact cleaner inside, I always recommend Servisol and it might just clean the brushes enough for a better contact, however if they're badly worn then replacement is a better option. If you need a replacement starter shop around, last one I bought was NOS and cost me £24 in December past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted January 27, 2022 Report Share Posted January 27, 2022 the trouble with running a battery flat is as the volts drop the amps go up so the end effect can be you cook the motor are you sure its not just the bendix has jammed in mesh from it running flat ??? a failed field winding will give a similar effect of a flat battery Pete 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliff.b Posted January 27, 2022 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2022 11 minutes ago, Colin Lindsay said: Doug just beat me to it!! That's the place to start (no pun intended!) - run a cable directly to the starter from the battery and see how it turns. If it turns fine then the fault is in the connections; clean up all cables and terminals and check the solenoid; they can gum up alarmingly inside. Last one I dismantled was bright green inside. You can also remove the starter and loosen the end plate enough to get a jet of contact cleaner inside, I always recommend Servisol. If you need a replacement starter shop around, last one I bought was NOS and cost me £24 in December past. Yes, I tried cables direct from battery to starter & engine block and still the same, but not certain just touching the lead to the battery would allow sufficient current to flow. Where did you get your starter from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliff.b Posted January 27, 2022 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2022 2 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said: the trouble with running a battery flat is as the volts drop the amps go up so the end effect can be you cook the motor are you sure its not just the bendix has jammed in mesh from it running flat ??? a failed field winding will give a similar effect of a flat battery Pete The Bendix did jam a couple of times when the starter was turning over very slowly but freed up ok when I rocked the car in gear. Incidentally, I forgot to mention that I bump started the car off the drive and drove a few miles and when I got back it was still doing the same with a warm engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliff.b Posted January 27, 2022 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2022 23 minutes ago, Iain T said: I'm far from an electrical wizard (but I'm learning) I agree with you sounds like the starter has a problem. Did you have a slow turning starter before this failure? Iain It definitely has been turning over since the weather is colder but I would expect that due to oil viscosity. I wouldn't say it has been overly slow but I have never had to crank it long before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NonMember Posted January 27, 2022 Report Share Posted January 27, 2022 It's worth turning the starter a quarter turn with the square peg on the end. Sometimes this moves the commutator to a better spot and it will then start... until the next time it doesn't. However, that's usually a good sign the brushes need replacing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Lindsay Posted January 27, 2022 Report Share Posted January 27, 2022 12 minutes ago, cliff.b said: Yes, I tried cables direct from battery to starter & engine block and still the same, but not certain just touching the lead to the battery would allow sufficient current to flow. Where did you get your starter from? eBay of course!! I actually bought two within a very short space of time, an M35G for a tenner and a brand new M35J for £24. The G has the removable band round it so makes access to the brushes a doddle, but I couldn't resist the second which had a buy-it-now of £24 and £3 postage. I'm usually inclined to buy one that looks good but might require refurbished, and repair it off the car so it's a straight swap - this one is only £5 buy-it-now. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/224763517088?hash=item3454f318a0:g:OVUAAOSwy6thy1JZ Make sure any you buy has the correct number of teeth on the drive gear; we need 9. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliff.b Posted January 27, 2022 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2022 3 minutes ago, NonMember said: It's worth turning the starter a quarter turn with the square peg on the end. Sometimes this moves the commutator to a better spot and it will then start... until the next time it doesn't. However, that's usually a good sign the brushes need replacing. It has been alternating between turning over slowly and just clicking, so I presume it's stopping in a variety of places. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliff.b Posted January 27, 2022 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2022 4 minutes ago, Colin Lindsay said: eBay of course!! I actually bought two within a very short space of time, an M35G for a tenner and a brand new M35J for £24. The G has the removable band round it so makes access to the brushes a doddle, but I couldn't resist the second which had a buy-it-now of £24 and £3 postage. I'm usually inclined to buy one that looks good but might require refurbished, and repair it off the car so it's a straight swap - this one is only £5 buy-it-now. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/224763517088?hash=item3454f318a0:g:OVUAAOSwy6thy1JZ Make sure any you buy has the correct number of teeth on the drive gear; we need 9. Ok, many thanks 👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliff.b Posted January 27, 2022 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2022 18 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said: the trouble with running a battery flat is as the volts drop the amps go up so the end effect can be you cook the motor are you sure its not just the bendix has jammed in mesh from it running flat ??? a failed field winding will give a similar effect of a flat battery Pete Pete, what you say about "cooking it" and the field windings could make sense. Usually, I only turn it over for about 3 or 4 seconds at a time but thinking back, on this occasion I was getting frustrated and cranked it longer and it was after this that the problem started occurring. But I just assumed the long cranking had flattened the battery. Now, I'm not sure the battery ever was flat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliff.b Posted January 27, 2022 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2022 Think I will take the starter off tomorrow and dismantle it. Depending on what I find I may be back for further advice 👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daverclasper Posted January 27, 2022 Report Share Posted January 27, 2022 Interesting. Had to do quite a bit of cranking lately to get car started (now sorted the issue). I had read to be careful, as it gets too hot?, though as Pete says, "too many amps", maybe the same thing?. More wondering about guide lines, for how long to crank and does it need a cooling off period, before cranking again, to not, muller the starter?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliff.b Posted January 27, 2022 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2022 16 minutes ago, Mathew said: I have four spare starters, your welcome to one of them. Your only down the road from me if you want to come and collect. Pm me if interested. Thanks. I have PM you 👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NonMember Posted January 27, 2022 Report Share Posted January 27, 2022 2 hours ago, daverclasper said: I had read to be careful, as it gets too hot?, though as Pete says, "too many amps", maybe the same thing? Yes, more or less. Pete's "too many amps" is not as simple as it sounds! Less volts will always mean less amps for a given condition but the conditions are not the same if the voltage drops too low because the motor stalls. An electric motor draws less current when spinning than when stalled, not due to any resistance change (if anything the resistance increases) but because an electric motor also acts as a generator, and when it's spinning that generator behaviour puts a reverse voltage in the circuit which means it sees less effective voltage, and hence less current. However, the increased current that it sees due to stalling on a flat (less than 10V) battery is less than the stall current it draws on initial start-up with a fully charged battery. So Pete's "too many amps" is emphatically NOT too many amps for the motor to withstand. It is, however, more than the motor will cope with over a long period without cooling (they're cooled by spinning) because of the heat it generates. It's that heat that kills it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wagger Posted January 27, 2022 Report Share Posted January 27, 2022 3 hours ago, daverclasper said: Interesting. Had to do quite a bit of cranking lately to get car started (now sorted the issue). I had read to be careful, as it gets too hot?, though as Pete says, "too many amps", maybe the same thing?. More wondering about guide lines, for how long to crank and does it need a cooling off period, before cranking again, to not, muller the starter?. My 1970's German car handbooks contained a sentence, 'Operate the starter for up to 20 seconds, then wait 40 seconds before trying again.' That is 33% duty cycle. Rob has described what happens to an engaged and stalled motor admirably. Modern cars have a relay that will not engage the starter if the battery is so low that it stalls. That would be a worthy mod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteH Posted January 28, 2022 Report Share Posted January 28, 2022 SWMBO`s car has the (irritating) "stop/start" feature. For the size of engine ,1200cc, the battery is huge. As big if not bigger than that on the 3L Merc; diesel.!! I would assume, the Amps that would deliver would indeed need some sort of "control" feature (relay?). Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliff.b Posted January 28, 2022 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2022 2 hours ago, PeteH said: SWMBO`s car has the (irritating) "stop/start" feature. For the size of engine ,1200cc, the battery is huge. As big if not bigger than that on the 3L Merc; diesel.!! I would assume, the Amps that would deliver would indeed need some sort of "control" feature (relay?). Pete This has got me thinking about when owners fit the largest possible battery to aid starting performance. If the max "cranking amps" a battery can deliver is higher, could this increase the possibility of overheating the starter motor? I know the rationale is probably that the car will start more easily, so the opposite is true, but what if it doesn't start due to a fault of some kind and you just keep cranking it 🤔 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted January 28, 2022 Report Share Posted January 28, 2022 stop start batteries are segregated into sections to run various circuits there is no economy when the battery fails in one section and the replacement is over £400 needs alot of stops to balance out any eledged savings . and on our old things the battery really needs to be balanced against its needs in as much as too small wont work well and too large will die through lack of use we used to call it cycling the charge discharge needs to be sort of matched or you dont gain anything Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain T Posted January 28, 2022 Report Share Posted January 28, 2022 6 hours ago, Pete Lewis said: needs alot of stops to balance out any eledged savings . I turn my stop start off as soon as I'm on the move. The auto stop/start annoys me at traffic lights and in heavier traffic where you stop for a few seconds then go forward a few metres then stop it all seems a lot of cranking and car jiggling for nothing. However it must tick some boxes for some unnamed government officials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteH Posted January 28, 2022 Report Share Posted January 28, 2022 In 4 years and only 12K miles (low, due to covid) SWMBO`s car has "saved" 46Kg of Carbon👍🙂 Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badwolf Posted January 28, 2022 Report Share Posted January 28, 2022 As mentioned elsewhere, my stop/start only works when the 'computer says yes', which is not very often. Maybe I too should just turn it off as soon as I've pulled away. Got fed up of the permanent 'battery charging' message. Main dealer says this is quite normal....so what's the point of having it? Summer use only when the pull on the battery is lighter? Lady BW has asked me how will EVs go on when the heated windows, heated seats, headlights, wipers, radio, usb charger, satnav, and everything else are switched on along with the engine. Couldn't answer her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted January 28, 2022 Report Share Posted January 28, 2022 1 hour ago, Badwolf said: how will EVs go on when the answer it probably.....not very far ha ! Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now