Indicator cancel - GT6 Mk3 - steering column alignment

[Jim-GT6]

Hi all,

In order to function correctly, my indicator stalk is pointing down at something past 4 o'clock at rest, instead of toward 3 o'clock. If I'm signalling right and I crash, I will most certainly be impaled. It's also just annoying. It looks really wrong, and it's not to hand where you'd want it!

The reason the stalk is pointing down at something past 4, is that this is where it needs to be for the signal cancel to work. When I'm going straight, my steering wheel is straight, but the column isn't correct rotationally for the indicator cancel cams to be right with the actuators, unless the controls are twisted. Although the steering wheel can fit to any spline location, I've come to suspect / realise / think it actually appears to have only one correct relationship to the steering column, which is when the indicator cancel lump is pointing East and the steering wheel is centred. I can't see a way to rotate the bump relative to the column. It's a clip, but is always shown on exploded diagrams as part of the column, and looks to sit in a machined feature in the column itself, meaning it can't be anywhere else (I think?).

If this is the case, to correct it, I think I need to take off the steering wheel, refit it so the indicator cancel is correct to the wheel (which will make it look like I'm taking a medium left turn), then adjust the tie rods equal amounts in the same direction until the wheels point forward with the steering wheel, eventually, straight ahead.

Just to say, I've got no reason to suspect major impact damage in the past to the car. I'v been driving it like this daily since I bought it 18 months ago. I worked out that this was how to get the indicators working a few weeks after buying it. It turns out I cannot train myself to cancel my own indicators. I tried for weeks. I flash for half a mile. It's embarrassing.

It's had an MOT since, and done about 4k miles on new tyres I fitted a few weeks after I got it, which look to be wearing very evenly. No big handling issues. I don't know why my column cancel actuator is out of alignment.

In terms of threads visible on the tie rods, they look sort of similar. I've not counted, but maybe 10 to 15 visible each side? Could be similar to each other, or maybe up to 4 threads difference between them. I could count if useful? How much would a rotation on the tie rod make to the steering wheel rotation? If 3 or 4 threads would make a 4 o'clock wheel go to 3 o'clock, that might be it. Also - I suspect it's not too important that they're equal. I imagine there's a reason for the big adjustment range on the tie rods.

So ... if the only way to correct the issue with the indicator cancel bump is via adjustment of the tie rods, the next thing is whether I can do this myself by making equal adjustments each side until the steering wheel is straight, without any measurements or equipment. Just careful, equal turns with a mark on both sides (I don't have flat ground, or a garage to set up a rig or measuring setup). Would making equal turns keep the toe okay (within bounds) or would it throw it out? Could I assume its okay if it feels okay and I keep a close eye on tyre wear at intervals for 1k miles? If it's currently okay (which it is), and it feels okay after I correct the column (with adjustments same each side), and the tyre wear is okay, then do I need to worry?

I might organise this post into a list of numbered questions .... 

If I could fix this, my inner OCD would ooze a sigh of relief like a long overdue wee at a service station.

Thanks in advance!

[johny]

Not sure if this position adjustment of the steering column can be done at the universal joint where it connects to the rack....

[Josef]

The way to correct this is to park the car with the wheels dead ahead and disconnect the UJ that connects the lower column to the steering rack. Then rotate the inner column till the indicator cancel cam is correctly aligned (east as you say). After that, refit all the switchgear and test, then remove and refit the steering wheel so it’s correctly orientated. No need to mess with the  actual wheel alignment!

[NonMember]

As the others have said, this is a matter of aligning the column, not the wheel or the rack or the tie rods or anything else. Undo the UJ at the bottom of the column and pull the column out, rotate to the right place and re-fit, just as Josef described.

It's very common to find this, because too many people (and garages!) don't understand how it works and don't pay enough attention to getting it right when fiddling with it.

[Gully]

5 hours ago, Josef said:

The way to correct this is to park the car with the wheels dead ahead and disconnect the UJ that connects the lower column to the steering rack. Then rotate the inner column till the indicator cancel cam is correctly aligned (east as you say). After that, refit all the switchgear and test, then remove and refit the steering wheel so it’s correctly orientated. No need to mess with the  actual wheel alignment!

Exactly what I had to do with my GT6.

Gully

[Jim-GT6]

Thanks everyone! I thought there must be somewhere between the steering column and tie rods to change their relationship. I didn't know these parts were splined when disassembled. Thank you for your patience!

I had looked in my manuals, but din't see this mentioned. Just found this diagram on Rimmers. I assume I'm slackening one of the pinch bolts that goes through FAM1718 to withdraw the column. Is it the one shown here, or the one not shown?

[Colin Lindsay]

It happens sometimes when some mechanics / owners fit new track rod ends; they remove the old ones, fit new with scant regard to where the old ones sat, align the front wheels and THEN look at where the steering wheel is - it's easily removed in our cars, straighten it up, tighten the nut and away you go with all else out of kilter.

There are two bolts Jim, one horizontal and one vertical ie they sit at right angles to each other. Hopefully you'll have enough movement to get the column out of the UJ without the collapsable joint causing any bother - I'm not sure about later GT6 but on early models and Heralds etc it's often tight to the outer column tube and may limit upwards movement.

[Jim-GT6]

2 minutes ago, Colin Lindsay said:

It happens sometimes when some mechanics / owners fit new track rod ends; they remove the old ones, fit new with scant regard to where the old ones sat, align the front wheels and THEN look at where the steering wheel is - it's easily removed in our cars, straighten it up, tighten the nut and away you go with all else out of kilter.

There are two bolts Jim, one horizontal and one vertical ie they sit at right angles to each other. Hopefully you'll have enough movement to get the column out of the UJ without the collapsable joint causing any bother - I'm not sure about later GT6 but on early models and Heralds etc it's often tight to the outer column tube and may limit upwards movement.

Thanks Colin. I did wonder if it would slide up easily. Would I need to slacken the bolts on the impact clamp to free it up if tight?

In the Haynes I have now seen it says to pay attention to the indicator cancel lip orientation on reassembly. I guess someone didn't.

 

[NonMember]

17 minutes ago, Jim-GT6 said:

Would I need to slacken the bolts on the impact clamp to free it up if tight?

Probably, yes, because you need the inner column to slide up and the impact clamp normally prevents that. Loosen the small 7/16" head bolts, not the adjustment one, to keep the same setting when you re-tighten.

3 hours ago, Mathew said:

The 1500 spit i thought the indicator switch off was on the lugs of the stearing wheel

That's true of the late 1500 (Dolomite switchgear) I believe, but not the earlier cars.

[chrishawley]

14 hours ago, Jim-GT6 said:

the reason the stalk is pointing down at something past 4,

I'm not sure I'm understanding that aspect of the description of the problem. Is that to say that the resting position of the indicator stalk is at 4 o'clock? If so, is it also the case that the column light stalk is at a 10 o'clock resting position? If so then the only way that can be the case is if the steering column cowl assembly (part 155177) is mounted about 30 degrees rotated from where it should be. Which is not so easy to achieve since when the wiring shroud (154833) is correctly affixed (and actually present!) it pretty much dictates the correct mounting (rotational)  position of the cowl assembly.

If the column cowl has been mis-fitted it is desirable to remedy this before attempting to adjust the self-cancelling. Tedious fulll disassembly should not be required and slackening the lower and upper clamps should allow the cowl to be rotated - but hoping that PO hasn't mullered the wiring shroud. No special tools required other than spanner, sockets and allen keys.

For setting the self-cancelling on the indicators from a baseline unknown condition I'd suggest the following procedure:

• Park up vehicle in a straight ahead position. Level not so important but straight is.

• Remove steering wheel. No, this can't be avioded.

• Slacken collapsible joint between upper and lower shafts.

• Disconnect lower splined joint on steering UJ and slide lower shaft upward to allow free rotation.

• Rotate the shaft untill the spring clip (140549) falls in the middle of the 'jaws' of the indictor switch unit (e.g. pointing 'eastward')

• Lightly reattach steering wheel in a correct straight ahead position. Confirm that activation of the self cancelling is approx symetrical for left and right rurns of the wheel. Put s.wheel back to straight ahead.

• Recouple lower UJ without accidicently rotating the column / moderate tighten pinch bolt. Moderate tighten of collapsible joint and moderately tighten steering wheel.

• Carefully and at low speed perform road test (things only moderately tightened at this stage). If self-cancelling not symetrical then retrun to base and re-do lower steering UJ rotating by one spline in the requisite direction. Re-test and repeat as required.

• Once self cancelling the best possible it can be then road test to determine whether steering wheel is straight ahead. If not, remove steering wheel and refit one or more splines rotated in the requisite direction.

• When all is done tighten at all points to final tightness. In particular the grub screw/locking nut on the collapsible section which should be severely tight.

One thing not to do is to try and adjust the position of the cancelling trafficator clip on the upper mast: Creates problems and avails nothing.

Of course, the track rod end adjustment can be used to fine tune the centering of the self cancelling and steering wheel centering. But doing so affects both of these simultaneously - so it may correct one, but adversely affect the other. And if the tracking were aleady good it's oh-so-easy to lose one's datum points and end up having to retrack the whole thing. So I'd incline to getting the best adjustment 'on the splines' even if that means a few repeat efforts. If one does have to adjust the track rod ends for fine adjusment then proceed only by small increments/decrements e.g. half to whole turn and road test after each adjusmment.

 

 

 

 

 

[Colin Lindsay]

29 minutes ago, chrishawley said:

One thing not to do is to try and adjust the position of the cancelling trafficator clip on the upper mast: Creates problems and avails nothing.

If that can even be done. I know they still sell the clip but from memory there's a dimple in the sides that fits into a corresponding area of the column so that it can't rotate. In fact you can see it in the photo, so I think it's one position only and can't be adjusted.

 

 

[Casper]

To do this properly you first need to centre the rack (which will probably require subsequent adjustment of TREs)

Full details : https://www.tssc.org.uk/tssc/uploaded_files/158 - August 1993.pdf p.27

Sorry, it's https://www.tssc.org.uk/tssc/uploaded_files/160 - October 1993.pdf p. 62

Everyone should have hard copy of the whole of this series.

C.

[Jim-GT6]

2 hours ago, chrishawley said:

I'm not sure I'm understanding that aspect of the description of the problem. Is that to say that the resting position of the indicator stalk is at 4 o'clock? If so, is it also the case that the column light stalk is at a 10 o'clock resting position? If so then the only way that can be the case is if the steering column cowl assembly (part 155177) is mounted about 30 degrees rotated from where it should be. Which is not so easy to achieve since when the wiring shroud (154833) is correctly affixed (and actually present!) it pretty much dictates the correct mounting (rotational)  position of the cowl assembly.

If the column cowl has been mis-fitted it is desirable to remedy this before attempting to adjust the self-cancelling. Tedious fulll disassembly should not be required and slackening the lower and upper clamps should allow the cowl to be rotated - but hoping that PO hasn't mullered the wiring shroud. No special tools required other than spanner, sockets and allen keys.

For setting the self-cancelling on the indicators from a baseline unknown condition I'd suggest the following procedure:

• Park up vehicle in a straight ahead position. Level not so important but straight is.

• Remove steering wheel. No, this can't be avioded.

• Slacken collapsible joint between upper and lower shafts.

• Disconnect lower splined joint on steering UJ and slide lower shaft upward to allow free rotation.

• Rotate the shaft untill the spring clip (140549) falls in the middle of the 'jaws' of the indictor switch unit (e.g. pointing 'eastward')

• Lightly reattach steering wheel in a correct straight ahead position. Confirm that activation of the self cancelling is approx symetrical for left and right rurns of the wheel. Put s.wheel back to straight ahead.

• Recouple lower UJ without accidicently rotating the column / moderate tighten pinch bolt. Moderate tighten of collapsible joint and moderately tighten steering wheel.

• Carefully and at low speed perform road test (things only moderately tightened at this stage). If self-cancelling not symetrical then retrun to base and re-do lower steering UJ rotating by one spline in the requisite direction. Re-test and repeat as required.

• Once self cancelling the best possible it can be then road test to determine whether steering wheel is straight ahead. If not, remove steering wheel and refit one or more splines rotated in the requisite direction.

• When all is done tighten at all points to final tightness. In particular the grub screw/locking nut on the collapsible section which should be severely tight.

One thing not to do is to try and adjust the position of the cancelling trafficator clip on the upper mast: Creates problems and avails nothing.

Of course, the track rod end adjustment can be used to fine tune the centering of the self cancelling and steering wheel centering. But doing so affects both of these simultaneously - so it may correct one, but adversely affect the other. And if the tracking were aleady good it's oh-so-easy to lose one's datum points and end up having to retrack the whole thing. So I'd incline to getting the best adjustment 'on the splines' even if that means a few repeat efforts. If one does have to adjust the track rod ends for fine adjusment then proceed only by small increments/decrements e.g. half to whole turn and road test after each adjusmment.

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Chris, this is a great guide. Thank you. 
The controls are just as you say. Main beam stalk pointing up to the left. The whole outer tube and cowling can be twisted with heft to a new position with a squeak. I’ll check the wiring isn’t wrecked. Suspect the clamps just not fully tight.

[Jim-GT6]

Absolutely right. Sits in grooves in the column, or appears to. Just one position possible.

[Jim-GT6]

Brilliant guide in the Courier Casper! Thanks so much for pointing the way. I second the call for a compilation of these if they're all this good. Has such a thing been done?

I'll check my rack position first for peace of mind. I've not noticed any asymmetry, but I've not checked.

I note the article suggests loosening the lock not and grub screw in the safety clamp to allow the column to slide up out of the steering joint, then tightening it to 18-20 ft lbs when the column is back in position, before doing up the lock nut.

Loosening the safety clamp sounded appealing instead of loosening the grub screw to avoid messing up the setting, but I see the two bolts through the clamp are also specified as torqued up to a value. About half that of the centre grub screw. If the faces of the clamp are touching when I look at it, then I suspect I might be fine to do them back up good and tight (without using a torque wrench) to just the faces back together, but if they're not touching and I retighten the bolts without a torque wrench, I would be affecting the setup of safety clamp in the same way as approximating the tightness of the grub screw.

I also do not trust the PO on the question of tightening anything correctly. Everything is loose. Latest was two bolts on the prop. Just not done up. A lot of work was done 20 years back, with not many miles / yr since then until I bought it 18 months ago. Some details of reassembly feel a bit, hurried?

All this is telling me that I need a good torque wrench.

Thanks to everyone for their inputs on this. I was really not well enough informed on how the steering was put together, and this stuff is not in the manuals.

[Pete Lewis]

the slip joint is a simple bit of kit  it does need some care   resetting it is down to it needs to be tight enough to stop the column shifting in normal use 

but have the ability to slip when your chest impales on the handwheel 

there is the torque spec for the grub screw but a nice hand nip is quite workable no gorilla hands here 

a really good hard pull on the wheel will shift the slip joint , the outer column has the crinkle spring in its dash clamp  so the outer tube will also collapse or shift when a serious heavy or crash load is applied   

if the horn blows due to lack of gap between the wheel and cowl  give it all a good push/pull wiggle  and you wiil improve the gap problem  its not a dark art 

just needs a bit of attention and care 

Pete

[Iain T]

24 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

if the horn blows due to lack of gap between the wheel and cowl  give it all a good push/pull wiggle  and you wiil improve the gap problem  its not a dark art 

I found that out last week! Checked all the wiring before then realised I may have moved the column...

Iain 

[Jim-GT6]

31 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

the slip joint is a simple bit of kit  it does need some care   resetting it is down to it needs to be tight enough to stop the column shifting in normal use 

but have the ability to slip when your chest impales on the handwheel 

there is the torque spec for the grub screw but a nice hand nip is quite workable no gorilla hands here 

a really good hard pull on the wheel will shift the slip joint , the outer column has the crinkle spring in its dash clamp  so the outer tube will also collapse or shift when a serious heavy or crash load is applied   

if the horn blows due to lack of gap between the wheel and cowl  give it all a good push/pull wiggle  and you wiil improve the gap problem  its not a dark art 

just needs a bit of attention and care 

Pete

Thanks Pete. That's very reassuring. Thanks also for the tip on the horn. That would have been a head scratcher too!

[Stratton Jimmer]

14 hours ago, Jim-GT6 said:

All this is telling me that I need a good torque wrench.

In case you need one, Aldi have a very good torque wrench in their special buys at the moment. They are metric only but the Haynes books (filed under F for fiction) have conversion tables. I think these wrenches are under £20 and come complete with calibration certificates. I've had mine for about two years (same brand from same supplier) and it is excellent.

[Colin Lindsay]

Here's the official guide from the WSM:

[Pete Lewis]

18/20lbft is a normal hand pull on a reasonable spanner .......... just to keep reality in place 

 just remember many torque figures were  developed to enable non /semi skilled operators to perform repeatable functions within a window of quality of the joint

any turning motion has a torque ,it is not a dark art or anything very special.

there is very little on a triumph that requires either weak pinkies   or gorilla fingers or scaffold tubes  

the correct sized spanner is designed to a length that achieves a specific  fix with reasoned ability by hand 

its obvious some fixings need a designed torque or free play to be effective and trouble free but in the main 

solid fixings or face to face fixings can be quite reliable with use of the pinkies 

Im sure the Aldi torque  £19  spanner comes with a set of sockets   included

Pete

 

 

[Jim-GT6]

Update: I checked to see if the rack is centred (step one in the Courier guide). From straight ahead, it currently allows 2.25 turns to the left, and 2 turns to the right. Looks like I will need to start with equal rotations of the track rods to centre the rack so it's equal each way. This in itself might centre the column, we'll see (it would rotate the column / indicator clip in the desirable direction i.e. CCW). We'll see. If so, it might then just be remove and refit steering wheel .... and perhaps a visit to have the toe checked.

[Casper]

Prints in bookfold for A5

C.

SusSusSussed.doc

[Iain T]

3 hours ago, Jim-GT6 said:

checked to see if the rack is centred

I had to move my rack over a few millimetres as the steering shaft hit my 631 manifold. I had no option. 

Iain 

[Pete Lewis]

thats a pretty common foul   had the same on my 1600 =+631   

a decent dimple in the primery would help clearance but they are tough and when i tried to add clearance it resisted quite strong attempts to dent the tube a little 

so a rack shift was inevitable , then the uJ fouls the turret    all a bit tight in there 

Pete