MX5 gearbox into my Vitesse

[Bruce Raybould]

Hi everyone,  I have the chance of an MX5 box being put into my 1.6 1965 Vitesse. Frankly I think it would be a game changer allowing me to go over 40mph without the engine screaming. 

Anyone on here done it and are they happy with it?

Thanks.

Bruce 

[NonMember]

That sounds like a phenominally complex and difficult approach to a problem that's far easier to fix with a diff swap.

[Ian Foster]

1 hour ago, Bruce Raybould said:

I have the chance of an MX5 box being put into my 1.6 1965 Vitesse

Bruce

Nick Jones will be along any minute to explain how easy it is!

Ian

[ahebron]

On 23/02/2023 at 22:12, NonMember said:

That sounds like a phenominally complex and difficult approach to a problem that's far easier to fix with a diff swap.

But where is the fun in that.

[Pete Lewis]

there is a moral in all this  fun 

try try try again,

if at first you dont succeed try a bigger hammer

the hobby empties the wallet so i save  by not buying must haves 

and so on  

stay  happy 

Pete

 

 

[Wagger]

Go and look at the dimensions. Much chassis modification, and the remote would be better sitting in the rear seat.

Fit an overdrive. A taller diff beyond 3.89:1 might make Porlock hill a NoNo with a 1600/6.

From experience in 1974.

[JohnD]

For the above, I adjusted the image sizes to show their relative lengths.   I omit the Ford bell housing, which you don't want anyway.  But look at the sheer length of the Mazda bell!!   Surely that input shaft will not fit into a Triumph engine, without major mods.   That was shy I  rejected the Mazda, in favour of a Ford, which fits nicely!

See: Fitting the Ford T9 gearbox - Members Cars and Project threads - Sideways Technologies (sideways-technologies.co.uk)

John

[johny]

Its just that isnt the T9 getting a bit rare these days?

[KevinR]

Nick Jones has tried it, his attempt is documented on another forum :

https://sideways-technologies.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/8925-mazda-gearboxes-some-bstard-told-me-it-was-impossible-so-i-had-to-do-it/

 

[Wagger]

Before I fitted an overdrive to my 1600/6, I used to drive everywhere at 60 to 80mph. I never thought that it sounded too frantic. Remember, the six fires three times per revolution instead of twice in the case of a four cylinder unit. A nice exhaust note makes this a pleasure, not an ear offender.

After fitting the overdrive, all that happened really was more playing with the switch and the gears. It pulled far more smartly with overdrive 'Off'. Admittedly, it saved rpm on long straight bits, but the economy gained was very marginal. After a year, the overdrive packed up, so a bit of a waste of effort.

There must be other five speed boxes that will fit. However, avoid the early Getrag that had a 'Dog leg 1st'. That has a 1:1 top gear as did most of the time back then, including the Fiat 124 coupe.

I always wondered why a really flexible six pot did not have a wide ratio box and a much taller diff.

I am at present looking at the prospect of fitting a ZF four speed auto with a 'Lockup' torque converter. I once had a car that did 100mph at 3000rpm with one of these in it. It had no electronics involved either. Until then I was anti auto, but some bigger engined cars are more suited to being autos.

 

[johny]

12 minutes ago, Wagger said:

I always wondered why a really flexible six pot did not have a wide ratio box and a much taller diff.

Well in most inline gearboxes 4th is straight through so 1:1 (hence the name overdrive) plus our diff cases cant physically accomodate a ratio lower than 3.27:1  and even then I believe modifications had to be made for it! So all this means that for our six cylinder high torque lorry-engine-in-a-light-car models we need a 1st gear not too far removed from 4th hence a requirement for a 'close ratio' gearbox.

Saying that I still consider first gear ratio in my 2L Vitesse too high as its hardly needed (a 3.63 diff is on the jobs list) so the chances of finding a standard gearbox from another car that suits is pretty difficult🙁

[Wagger]

1 hour ago, johny said:

Well in most inline gearboxes 4th is straight through so 1:1 (hence the name overdrive) plus our diff cases cant physically accomodate a ratio lower than 3.27:1  and even then I believe modifications had to be made for it! So all this means that for our six cylinder high torque lorry-engine-in-a-light-car models we need a 1st gear not too far removed from 4th hence a requirement for a 'close ratio' gearbox.

Saying that I still consider first gear ratio in my 2L Vitesse too high as its hardly needed (a 3.63 diff is on the jobs list) so the chances of finding a standard gearbox from another car that suits is pretty difficult🙁

My 2.5 litre has the 3.63:1 diff and does almost 40 mph in 1st. It will do 15 mph in top, so I sometimes go from 1 to 4.

[johny]

Do you need 1st though Waggy or would second do for almost all pull aways?

[Wagger]

Second will do except on some lock required getting out of the drive.

From memory I believe that my 1600/6 would reach 35 in first and almost 60 in second. More revvy than the 2.5. Reverse was stupidly fast as it was the same ratio as 1st on the non sychro box,

[johny]

sounds like you could almost do with a 3.27 diff?

[Pete Lewis]

crash on 1st was really consisered an emergency low   for when demands needed  so many a start in second was generlly normal 

my 1600  with a 3.89 diff did porlock lynton  and HardKnott with no problems by she did have a 4 sync box fitted 

used to be a water tap at the top of porlock    bet thats long gone 

back in the 60s you would find a Austin 7 going up in reverse 

[Colin Lindsay]

The handbook states first is for steep hill starts and for normal driving to move off in second.

[Wagger]

1 hour ago, Colin Lindsay said:

The handbook states first is for steep hill starts and for normal driving to move off in second.

Good innit, especially as the Vitesse would do 60 in second. Nearly as good as my Triumph bike that did 70 in second. 0 to 60 in second was six seconds. That bike now would be worth more than my tatty Vitesse. Wish I'd never sold it.

[johny]

Im afraid Im a wimp and to protect my Vitesse's fragile geabox want to get into 4th as soon as possible with minimal hard acceleration while its piddling needle roller bearings are in use😩

[JohnD]

Ahem!   The Triumph Vit/GT6 gearbox, indeed all their gearboxes of that and later periods, are "constant mesh" gearboxes.     Your roller bearings are all in  use, all the time.

[johny]

The horrible mainshaft tip bearing isnt rotating when in 4th and the layshafts, although spinning, arent transmitting drive load which is what does the damage☹️

[daverclasper]

On 26/02/2023 at 12:14, Wagger said:

A taller diff beyond 3.89:1 might make Porlock hill a NoNo with a 1600/6.

Have a 3.27, that was in Vitesse 2L when I got it. No problem with Porlock Hill

[Wagger]

I never did Porlock Hill in my Vitesse 6. However, it was high mileage with the old Solex carbs and some of our 'Bostalls' in Sussex required first gear when four up. I was erring on the pessimistic side due to this experience. Contrary to the belief of some, Sussex is not flat. Some 1 in 3's can be found. (We have the Seven Sisters too which is a very gruelling half marathon for runners).

My first experience of Porlock Hill was in my 1850 Dolly with kids and luggage. I had to use first gear due to having to use the inside of the bend. (Traffic coming the other way maybe with brake fade). The worst experience was the lack of brakes at the bottom on the return journey. Fade and hot fluid.

The 3.63:1 diff is supposed to be the most robust so I'll stay with that one.

I remember seeing BMW diff's and shafts fitted to the big saloons back around year 2000. Very tall ex E28 five series. Too big for the Vitesse.

My physical strength now limits what I can do post Treatment. My son and gandson will attend to the car eventually. They both have the 'Bug' so the Vitesse will survive.

 

[Pete Lewis]

think a quick whack into 1st as you approach the hairpin is a pretty normal intuative move before you stall it 

often the case with tourists with no idea of a proper hill tootle up in 3rd gear and block the  road 

i remember helping a jackknifed Bedford CA with musketeer across the road on the short but steep Lynton Hill

we had to detach the guys caravan only to find the handbrake was disconnected    Grrr !!!!  and manouver the lot to go back down and take the long road 

if you want to test your brake fluid  Countisbury must be a good start for a long down hill with a steep ending 

Hills   love em !!

Pete

[cliff.b]

On 27/02/2023 at 09:51, Pete Lewis said:

crash on 1st was really consisered an emergency low   for when demands needed  so many a start in second was generlly normal 

my 1600  with a 3.89 diff did porlock lynton  and HardKnott with no problems by she did have a 4 sync box fitted 

used to be a water tap at the top of porlock    bet thats long gone 

back in the 60s you would find a Austin 7 going up in reverse 

I remember my Dad taking us up Porlock in his Ford 100e with 3 speed gearbox & no synchro on 1st. It was full of family and 2 weeks luggage, much of it on the roof rack.

 

He decided to "take a run at it" with foot to the floor in 2nd which was ok until he turned the sharp bend and hit the really steep bit. He couldn't get it in 1st and then there was a cloud of steam as the cooling system emptied itself.

 

We had spare water but it wouldn't start so he rolled back down to the bottom where there was a garage. After a bit if tinkering we took the toll road lol