Fuel spill

[micmak]

Hi Guys, I had an experience with the Vitesse that bothers me.  Sorry for the long-winded story, but here goes:   The car died just as I approached my driveway after a short little drive.  It wouldn’t re-start.  I pushed it into the driveway and into the garage. I suspected a fuel starvation situation as it had been sorta stumbling when accelerating recently.  My first thought was to check the fuel pump.  

Next morning, I came out to examine the fuel pump.  Before I did anything, I decided to see if the car would start.  It did!!  It sounded very uneven and it was inclined to stall if I didn’t keep the revs up a little or leave the choke slightly pulled.  

After 2 or 3 minutes, I got out of the car and to my horror, I saw a river of black liquid all over the floor under the engine.  I quickly turned off the engine and feared the engine sump had split or something equally catastrophic allowing engine oil to pour out.   There was also a varnish-like smell.  

Then I realized that it wasn’t engine oil at all, but petrol!  It has VERY effectively washed off the black tar-like paint on the bulkhead below the carbs and also on the frame below.  The petrol was coming out the air filter.  

Now, from researching on this forum, I learned that the float valve in one of the carbs was likely stuck.  The carb closest to the windshield was causing the problem.   I removed the bowl on that carb.  I was expecting to find little bits of dirt, but there was almost no dirt.  There were very, very tiny bits caked into the corners of the bowl.  I cleaned them off, and blew out the little ports in the jet assembly.  Again, no dirt was obvious.  The float valve was moving up and down freely when I maneuvered it.  

So, I reassembled everything and started the car.  It sounded fine, there was no leak, and there seemed to be no problem.  This morning, I went out and re-sprayed the parts of the bulkhead and frame that were stripped.  

My questions now are:  
Why did the car die and not restart?  Why did it start the next morning?
Have I solved the problem, or is it likely to return today, tomorrow, next month?  
And has any one devised some sort of cover or plate to deflect any future leak away from the exhaust?  
When I realized how close this was to a fire, it scared me a bit.  I would like to avoid a repeat of the problem, but if it should ever happen again, I would like to have something to keep the fuel away from the exhaust area.  

All theories and suggestions welcome.

Thanks.

 

…..Mick….. 

[Mjit]

Quote

Why did the car die and not restart?  Why did it start the next morning?

At a guess float valve jammed while you were driving and started dumping fuel into the air filter - when then got sucked through along with the air going into the engine, in addition to the fuel beeing added by the carb and you ended up with too rick a mixture to burn - like leaving the choke pulled out.

Come the morning the excess fuel in the air cleaner would have evaporated so the engine restarted.

[Stratton Jimmer]

I had some similar problems with one carb flooding and it was down to the float needle being jammed open by  Uncle Pete's favourite "little black slivers". The car would start but ran like a three leg dog. I have since changed all of the fuel lines for an ethanol resistant brand (e.g. Gates Barricade) and added an in-line fuel filter - the glass type - between the pump and the carb inlet which means that I can easily monitor what is going to the carbs. Since fitting the replacement fuel lines, that filter has stayed clear and there have been no further instances of carb flood.

[micmak]

Thanks for the responses so far, Guys.  I should have said in my original post, that the car has only done a few hundred miles since a full restoration. It hasn't even reach it's first 1,000-mile-service yet.  I have only done 333 miles in it.  All the lines were replaced as part of the resto, and there is a glass fuel filter which looks clear.  I don’t know if any of the rubber parts are particularly ethanol resistant, but they are so new that I wouldn’t have thought there is any degradation yet. Also the few times that I have put fuel in the car, I have used additive too.

 

.....Mick.....

[Pete Lewis]

i would agree its a classic case of the dreaded rubber slivers these breed like rabbits and are caused by messing around with fuel  lines 

every time you re insert a metal pipe into the rubber fuel hose( often fake) it slices off a small rubber tadpole these swim about in the   ebb and flow of the fuel supply to the 

carb float needle valve and either jams it to make floods or reduced performance to  a stall

you need to remove the float valve and pump a small volume into a jam jar to catch them   often found jammed in the back of the float valve

crafty little sods    the gates barricade is a much tougher hose and it seems to not make these slivers 

a lot of after market fuel hose is just fake rubbish regardless of whats stamped on it.

club shop and other suppliers sell  barricade hose in 1/4 and 5/16 bore  ( 6mm /8mm) 

Pete

 

[micmak]

Thanks for your input, Pete Lewis.  I will take a look in the morning and see what type of hoses are on the lines.  Excuse my ignorance, but how do you go about removing the float valve and pumping some fuel into a jar? I presume remove the bowl, and look for some sort of pin that the float valve swivels on, and remove it?  And then, do I crank the car to make it pump fuel?  Sounds kinda splashy! 🤣

.....Mick.....

[johny]

Has your fuel pump got a manual lever on it? If so this can be used to pump fuel through. Also is it a new pump?

[micmak]

Johny, There IS a lever on it!!!!  I wondered why it was there.  Ok, so I will use that to pump some fuel and "flush through" any bits of dirt.  Thank you for that.  Dunno if I will have time to do it this weekend though.  Not using the car so it can sit there until I am ready.   And yes, it IS indeed a new pump.  Everything is new so I am surprised that dirt can be causing this problem. 

 

.....Mick.....

Edited August 11, 2023 by micmak

[Pete Lewis]

the float has two designs   a pivot pin fitted thro lugs or a simple clip in idea 

the float valve is then accessible to use a spanner to unscrew it

i take it you dont have workshop manuals for this ???

good clues Carburetors — Buckeye Triumphs

Zenith CD, CDS, CD-2S Series | Zenith Caburetters (zenithcarb.co.uk)

 

 

 

 

[Colin Lindsay]

19 hours ago, micmak said:

Johny, There IS a lever on it!!!!  I wondered why it was there.  Ok, so I will use that to pump some fuel and "flush through" any bits of dirt.  

If using the handle push DOWN as far as it will go, then up as far as it will go; anything else doesn't move the diaphragm in the pump as the lever just rests without stretching the diaphragm. You may think that simply squeezing the lever up and then letting it drop works, but I've found out the hard way that nothing happens, other than your hands get tired.

[Pete Lewis]

getting the pump cam on its back is important or you dont get the stroke needed to do anything,

a short turn of the crank will sort that 

Pete

[johny]

23 hours ago, micmak said:

And yes, it IS indeed a new pump.  Everything is new so I am surprised that dirt can be causing this problem. 

New pumps can produce more pressure than is recommended so overcoming the float needle valves. If you clean everything and theres still a problem this would be worth looking at....

[Sandy Gibson]

Regardless of what caused the leak, I would suggest a fuel on/off valve. I have one before my fuel filter and turn off the petrol every time the car goes into the garage.  Mainly for safety, but I feel it might help with security as well if anyone tried to steal the car.  If it stopped after a few yards they might just abandon it!

[micmak]

Once again Guys, thanks for all the comments and suggestions.   Sandy Gibson, the idea of a valve although it makes sense, it wouldn’t help my situation, really.  As for it being a security device, yes it would be so, but in my case, the chances of the car being stolen is VERY slim, as I never park any of my toy cars anywhere unless I can see it!  

[foshi]

you would be surprised how far they will travel on a carb bowl of fuel more than a few yards 

[Pete Lewis]

fuel cut offs and ignition devices are great  

we have had two members attempt to leave after a pub night and cant start , with lots of onlookers  comes the suggestion of have you got some antitheft device

Oops!!!!        red faces and cancelled a call to the recovery ...    they can be a pain in the butt

Pete

[micmak]

Hi Guys, In my original post, I asked a question that nobody seems to have answered.  

I asked if anyone had developed some sort of plate or cover to protect the exhaust from getting fuel dumped onto it.  

As there have been no direct responses to that, I will assume that nobody had made anything to keep fuel away from the exhaust.  

So, let me pose a further question by asking if any fuel dumps/spills similar to what I had, are known to have definitely caused a fire in a twin Stromberg set up?  Or am I worrying about nothing?

Thanks.

.....Mick.....

[Steve P]

On my Vitesse,which has a 2.5 engine and HS6 carbs,also a tubular exhaust manifold,  I have 2 heat shields under the carbs which are angled away to clear the exhaust, so fuel running down should not contact the exhaust directly but drip down around the turret/chassis area.

Steve

[Colin Lindsay]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/163783469309?hash=item26224168fd:g:Ov8AAOSwhkFgz4Dg&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA0GldAPoE%2FDT9WSPNHjkKsn4FbR7BNhQT7ABa5e25NZLQ8WmrYjkXaI8OgF%2B1wBNw%2FWc6Rq5OWMdqj8zUAvXTzjLfei6ZHOuS9MHEiuSUt5HyIQIKDzVV2ENLzC4yO3e5eOh1JZww9KozBYns%2BqE2u8sqU11Avx1SWuROrQCERNkwZY18ugqKG1fkLKHKhCNVRolXhWYY60nvDuBNDOBhI2XV%2FeFE1x2ZFxcemyqWT%2FIBW2uxxYkQEbgGPq%2FAUrAhhE%2FCG6lNprx5ewkPQD4qVDg%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR9T_uKK_Yg

 

Heatshields in stainless, these should angle the fuel away from the exhaust.

[Pete Lewis]

heat shields have been available for years  even club shop has them 

 

as a side fuel spilt on a hot exhaust will not burst into flames it just rapidly evaporates no matter who's carb or how many you have. 

brake  fluid  will burst into flames   its far more dangerous

pete

[micmak]

14 hours ago, Colin Lindsay said:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/163783469309?hash=item26224168fd:g:Ov8AAOSwhkFgz4Dg&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA0GldAPoE%2FDT9WSPNHjkKsn4FbR7BNhQT7ABa5e25NZLQ8WmrYjkXaI8OgF%2B1wBNw%2FWc6Rq5OWMdqj8zUAvXTzjLfei6ZHOuS9MHEiuSUt5HyIQIKDzVV2ENLzC4yO3e5eOh1JZww9KozBYns%2BqE2u8sqU11Avx1SWuROrQCERNkwZY18ugqKG1fkLKHKhCNVRolXhWYY60nvDuBNDOBhI2XV%2FeFE1x2ZFxcemyqWT%2FIBW2uxxYkQEbgGPq%2FAUrAhhE%2FCG6lNprx5ewkPQD4qVDg%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR9T_uKK_Yg

 

Heatshields in stainless, these should angle the fuel away from the exhaust.

Colin, When I first saw your link, I thought Brilliant, this is the solution!  However, when I looked more closely at it, I realized that these shields are really more to prevent heat from the exhaust rising to the carbs and evaporating the fuel.  It doesn’t seem to be really intended to keep spilled fuel away from the exhaust.

[micmak]

13 hours ago, Pete Lewis said:

heat shields have been available for years  even club shop has them 

 

as a side fuel spilt on a hot exhaust will not burst into flames it just rapidly evaporates no matter who's carb or how many you have. 

brake  fluid  will burst into flames   its far more dangerous

pete

Pete, Brake fluid is MORE flammable?  Really?  I didn't know that.  So if fuel evaporates on the exhaust, am I worrying for no reason?  

[johny]

Well dont forget vaporised fuel IS highly flammable if you let its concentration build up enough (quite easy) so any smell has to be investigated and the area well ventillated...

[68vitesse]

15 hours ago, Pete Lewis said:

brake  fluid  will burst into flames   its far more dangerous

Presumably Silicone brake fluid will not.

Regards

Paul.

[Pete Lewis]

1 hour ago, micmak said:

am I worrying for no reason? 

 

no but  you need to keep the fueling in good order then you  wont get  any spillage or worries  

I am a supporter of stick to the triumph basics    they work .

the car has lasted 50 years without heatshields .  dont get carried away with the myths that exist 

most heat problems are not the problem its the basic carb settings and fan air flow that cause the headaches and get called vapourisation 

modern fuels are a bit more susceptible to heat but not enough to cause a problem 

my rorty 1600 with unwrapped 631 and plastic fan , twin stroms, std air box  would idle for an hour without any hint of a hic up 

Pete