** ON TO THE NEXT BIT ** Nose to Tail - 1972 Spitfire MkIV restoration upgrades!!

[Pete Lewis]

torque figures are a bit mixed i dont have a spity IV wsm but being 3/8 unf studs the fixed spring is stated as 28-31 lbft  about normal for that dia stud/bolt. in hanyes it quotes 20lbft  ???

neither  differentiate between 6 stud or 4 stud designs  but all have same dia studs

nothing gorilla is required there is aprox 25 mm depth of thread in the diff case  (blind holes )

when i converted   a good bye swinger 4 stud to 6 stud i drilled down 25mm with  no breakthrough.

Pete

 

 

[Badwolf]

Right. All info filed away ready for the wet weather.  Can you explain the use of a lowering block please. I have read about them on various threads but never thought that I would need one. Bear in mind the spring and associated hardware appeared to come from a Mk3 Spitfire, which was fitted by a previous owner or even as a 'left overs' on the assembly line. Hence why I had such a hard time a. getting the new spring and b. being informed by the garage that the new one didn't fit (before they bodged it) and had to do a rally run to Chester for the mounting fittings before the 14 day MOT limit ran out for the retest the next day!

[JohnD]

How  to use a lowering block?

1/ Fit.

2/ Forget.

It's counterintuitive, but raising the spring, lowers the body.   The body and the suspension are mounted on the chassis.   Raising the spring pulls the suspension up, the equivalent of pushing the chassis down, which carries the body with it.

JOhn

[Badwolf]

Fairly obvious now, but I am having a bad day. I see that Canleys do various sizes. Do I really need one and if so, which do you recommend. I will however, wait until I get the spring out before ordering anything so that I can see if the cowboys have done any other damage that I need spares for ...like a new bottom plate which looks a bit bent and may not straighten very well.

[NonMember]

Whether you need one depends on whether the car actually is sitting too high. If it's just nice at the moment, a thin lowering block (1/4 inch) should keep it roughly the same once you fix the assembly error. If it's perhaps a fraction low, don't fit one!

[johny]

Im no expert but I believe using a lowering block has some implications: 

suspension travel is reduced so theres greater risk of bottoming out

rear wheel toe in and camber is increased which along with the lowering of the rear of the car reduces oversteer/increases understeer

the thickest blocks (1"?) will require the use of longer fixing studs

 

[Badwolf]

So, do I, don't I???  Do I just leave the spring to settle, for the mileage I do, is it worth it. But, while the spring is out should I do it??!! If I need to replace damaged parts should I order one and if so what size. Is the world flat or the moon made of green cheese (those last two are not serious questions, its bank holiday, the tv is off to avoid the news and the sherry is open!)

Is there anyone else out there who has changed their leaf spring, did you use a lowering block, did it work/improve things or cause problems of any kind. Do I really want the extra agro... pass the bottle please.

[Pete Lewis]

leave it std, get some miles on .

you can retro fit a block  but need to remove the studs to pop it in ,

and the spring may want to lift while you fit the sticky plasters

pete

[johny]

1 hour ago, Badwolf said:

So, do I, don't I???  Do I just leave the spring to settle, for the mileage I do, is it worth it. But, while the spring is out should I do it??!! If I need to replace damaged parts should I order one and if so what size. Is the world flat or the moon made of green cheese (those last two are not serious questions, its bank holiday, the tv is off to avoid the news and the sherry is open!)

Is there anyone else out there who has changed their leaf spring, did you use a lowering block, did it work/improve things or cause problems of any kind. Do I really want the extra agro... pass the bottle please.

I think this thread a little while ago was about a very similar problem: 'Rear swing spring conversion dangerous due to camber?'

[Badwolf]

Thanks Johny, will have a look.

[Badwolf]

Ok. So now after a day of checking out the leaf spring, finishing off the pre-mot jobs and fighting with the new headlight relays (chronicled on another thread), I have turned my attention to installing a new fuse box as outlined on AidenT's very useful thread. The re-paint is on hold for the short term but I think that I now have all the kit that I need to start shortly but other things are getting in the way, so apologies to the few of you who are following this thread, I will get on to it very shortly.

[Pete Lewis]

We changed the spring on the vit6 3 times the  orign was shot and fitted a de camberd unit from moss , well that was hopeless and weak

This came off and a swinger kit fitted , ride was too low the shockers bottomed out , fitted short shocks and  it just  got lower

With 10deg neg camber amd no ride travel  took bumps oit of the shocks and it dropped more ,, hopeless 

Last fitted a courier spring With a 1" lower block , perfect, sits looking mean and wheels at 1deg neg,  at last on rails

So yes ive used a lowering block, yes it worked on my mishaps,   but a std ride height of a mkIV ona swinger is pretty acceptable for 

Looks and general driving conditions I would run with  what you have 

If its suits leave alone , if you decide to lower you should do the front as well to keep the balance between front and rear

In harmony  just dropping the tail is not ok and can make the front end go  light at speed if it wants to lift .

Pete

 

[Badwolf]

Ok Pete, thanks. I will strip out the spring and just make good for the time being. When the paint job has been done I need to refit the steel bonnet instead of the fibreglass one, so I suppose the extra weight will change the way things sit so I will reconsider everything at that point. The new spring should have had a proper chance to bed in. I could always borrow some bags of sand from B&Q and take them for a ride out!!

Next job, on with the new fuse box.

[Colin Lindsay]

16 hours ago, Badwolf said:

So, do I, don't I??? 

No. You don't need one; remove the spring and refit it the way it should be, and see how that affects the ride height.

If, however, you want one, make sure you're aware of how it affects the ride, as once you start to remove exhausts etc on bumpy roads you might reconsider, especially if this means extra expense of uprated shocks etc.

[Badwolf]

Thanks Colin - Between Pete and you, you have convinced me to strip out, check for damage and put back together... carefully. Then check height, camber etc and take it from there.

[Waynebaby]

17 hours ago, Badwolf said:

So, do I, don't I??? 

Sorry if I set you off worrying about lowering blocks Badwolf! Trying the standard setting first sounds like a good plan especially as the provenance of your spring is a bit uncertain. It should be obvious by eye and when you drive it the first time whether the spring height is OK after the spring has been relocated properly on the diff. In the case of my new spring the camber of the wheels was significantly positive (\ - /) and the resultant oversteer nearly put me in the ditch at the first serious corner I came to.  Fitting a block isn't too much of a hassle and doesn't need the spring to come out again. Put the car on stands, remove the studs, jack up both rear wheels and slide in the block beneath the spring. Refitting the studs can take a bit of jiggery-pokery to get all the holes lined up, and it's possible to strip a thread on the casing if you rush this (ask me how I know) 

Good luck

Wayne

[Badwolf]

Thanks for the kind thoughts Wayne. Will bear everything in mind after the strip down and refit. Will document it here to help others, like others have helped me.

I have noticed that the spring appears to be sitting at a slight angle across its width (narrow part). Would this be due to a location stud at the bottom sitting on the plate that shouldn't be there, or is the stud at the top.  What a c*ck up especially when you are supposed to trust professionals (!!!) and they did my MOT.  Worrying isn't it?

[Pete Lewis]

You might be surprised but  theres  a good  chance the FG bonnet is actually heavier than  the  steel one

Pete

[Waynebaby]

1 hour ago, Badwolf said:

Would this be due to a location stud at the bottom sitting on the plate that shouldn't be there, or is the stud at the top

The stud is on the bottom, so all the force from the hold-down studs is pressing through a single point in the middle of the plate, which is probably what has buckled it. I've attached pictures which shows where it is on the spring and the hole it should locate in on the top of the diff. You might be able to see that for some reason not all of the stud holes on my old diff weren't blind (you could see down them into the diff) which was how I managed to screw in one of the studs so far that I forced the unthreaded section into the hole and cracked the mount. - D'oh!  

Wayne

[Colin Lindsay]

Oops! I hope that'd still useable, or at least, repairable. Some of those other threads look to be in need of a re-tap.

When I swapped my GT6 fixed-spring for a swing spring, two of the six holes became redundant but as you say, they're a straight-through drilling into the insides of the diff. To stop anything falling into the diff as the car drove - dirt, water or other nasties - I plugged the holes with the plastic ends from biro pens; you know the small plastic plugs in the tube on the other end from the writing point? A good match for the stud drilling with a flared end to stop them falling any further and even if they ever do, they're light plastic so won't damage any of the teeth.

 

[Badwolf]

This definately explains the 'lean' front to back of the spring and also one side of the body being slightly higher than the other as the spring will not be centered left to right. Caster/camber will be out too.

[Badwolf]

Changed the header caption for the moment to "Teach Me To Twiddle". The whole rear spring/headlight relay/fusebox/mot is currently accademic as she now won't start. Was going to go out for petrol and warm up the engine to change the oil but no joy. Same symptoms as 18months ago when I had the plug leads in the wrong order but that's not the problem this time. Engine turns over, smell of petrol, wet plugs, then flat battery, blows back occasionally through the carbs. Not done any proper investigating as battery still charging. What have I done that could have caused the problem... checked and gapped plugs and breakers, topped up dash pots (engine oil), tightened fan belt, fitted headlight relays, everything else is none ignition/electrical specific. Not been a very good two days!!

[iana]

Badwolf can’t answer your question but I share the sentiments of your revised title. Since returning to the Triumph fold I find each task significantly more difficult and frustrating than when I had triumphs before. Your findings of a garage is concerning me as I was just beginning to reconcile using a garage for a service and a few jobs I want doing, the PO had the vitesse serviced annually and it’s quite clear they greased the easy to access points including the trunnions (my winter task to take apart and rebuild with ep90 lubrication)  they failed to check / fill the gear box (guess that was too hard) and a few other bits and pieces. 

[Pete Lewis]

thats why we started TWIDDLE DAYS at Hq 

solves the head aches but ...wont start the car

ive said many times classics have a mind , when you find the fault i wont solve the problem 

having said that pop backs thro the carb is looking like a firing order   1342  anti clock.   or to advanced 

then theres burnt inlet valves    and so on !!!!!!!!!!

Pete

[Waynebaby]

35 minutes ago, Colin Lindsay said:

Oops! I hope that'd still useable, or at least, repairable.

The diff, despite being allegedly refurbished and from a reputable Triumph supplier howled almost as badly as the one it replaced and so I used the casing issue + the noise as a justification to get it rebuilt by Mike Papworth with a flashy alloy case (see below). It turns out the bearings were absolutely shot because after the "refurbishment" the casing still contained a not insignificant amount of grit left over from the blasting process used to clean it! Needless to say the diff that Mike built me is whisper quiet.