Paul H Posted August 1, 2017 Report Share Posted August 1, 2017 The effectiveness of the brakes on my mk2 vitesse is poor and lacking confidence should emergency braking be required. The vitesse would stop but takes too long . At the mot I asked the mechanic and he said the brakes were fine plus handbrake was satisfactory . The front pads , discs and rears drums and shoes are original and haven't been changed for years with some scoring plus corrosion. Front and rear brake cylinders have been replaced , master cylinder has had new seals. i was looking to purchase new drums , disks , pads , shoes . Are there any preferable brands to buy ? Plus I note you can spend £40 or £14 on a set of pads . Any advice would be appreciated as looking to spend my monies wisely. The vitesse is used for daily trips plus longer holidays planned when I'm confident she will come back☺️ No track days or racing is envisaged Thanks in advance Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted August 1, 2017 Report Share Posted August 1, 2017 If the MoT man says they are fine, they are fine. Your subjective impression that they are not may be due to something else. You say there is 'corrosion' - on discs? If there is, you are not applying the brakes hard enough, or the calipers are not operating effectively. Light rusting overnight is common, but discs should appear bright and clean after a run. Take it for an "Italian tune-up" of the brakes. Find a safe place to apply them HARD, several times, from a reasonable speed, not high. In fact experiment - can you get the wheels to lock up? If you can, the MoT man is correct. If not, your gut feeling is! This can be useful too, to point to ineffective brake parts. Is there a 'pull' to one side or the other? Lastly, you have alreday spent a lot on new brake parts, but not the most important, the flexible brake hoses. The rubber of these eventually perishes, and can partly or completely block the internal bore. Buy some new ones - no need for expensive braided hose. The Club sells ONLY those, @ £40 a set, but the usual suppliers have the ordinary rubber ones at £6 each. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul H Posted August 1, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2017 Hi John , thanks for input . Forgot to add that I have added Goodrich stainless flexi all round from the Club . As to to discs , they have some minor scoring but no rust apart from outer edges , rear drum have some minor scoring . I will carry out safe emergency braking and report back Best regards Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted August 1, 2017 Report Share Posted August 1, 2017 Whats the back of the disc like, they can get very heavy build up of resin/rust Check the front hub end float light nip of the castle nut and back off 1 -1.5 flats old pads do deteriorate, and if been in for years what are they ?. I cant advise on using green stuff as had poor experiences with them easy to clean but dont stop some go for mintex 1144 which need initial bedding as john suggests but have some real grip can be dusty std pads for std braking are fine When looking at rears many have the trailing shoe upside down, rear shoe must have square hole at the bottom. disconnect the handbrake cable , lock the adjusters up hard re adjust the cable to suit , back off the adjusters dont do this with axle hanging, must be uo1p in running height or you get poor result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveweblin Posted August 1, 2017 Report Share Posted August 1, 2017 If you are used to a modern cars braking the brake efficiency of the Vitesse will feel somewhat lacking. Like John says you need to test the brakes to highlight any faults. Whereas the front discs effectively self adjust the drums needs to be adjusted manually (but as you have had the car MOTed recently they must be adjusted properly at present.). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomL Posted August 1, 2017 Report Share Posted August 1, 2017 Hi, In my experience Vitesse brakes, provided they are set up correctly, should feel pretty good, even compared to a modern car. Obviously the Vitesse doesn't have clever features like ABS but that shouldn't affect "feel". I have run mine both with and without a servo and I have to say I don't miss the servo now I've removed it. And, like many here, I also switch from a modern car to my classic and I must say, I consider the Vitesse brake to be pretty good. As others have said, new high-performance hoses will help (old ones can suffer from ballooning under pressure) as will good quality pads. I also wasn't keen on the green ones (despite great claims) and have gone back to Mintex 1144, which are IMO great. Again, as others have said, keeping the rear brakes adjusted properly helps too. I think you will be amazed by the improvement with a bit of fettling. Let us know how you get on. Regards, Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted August 1, 2017 Report Share Posted August 1, 2017 New discs are cheap, and can really help if the old are looking poorly. And although the cheap pads, or even mintex (MGB633, though you will probably need to drill the pin holes out a tiny bit) will be OK at well under £20 a set, moving to mintex 1144 will see a decent improvement. However, I do wonder if you are missing the servo that your everyday car has. That can make a huge difference to the feel of the braking. You can gain confidence by trying hard braking on a deserted road. The brakes should all lock up with a hefty prod on the pedal. Ifnot, there is something amiss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 1, 2017 Report Share Posted August 1, 2017 Hello Paul. How far does your brake pedal travel before you start to feel the car braking / being responsive ?? When you changed the hydraulics and bled the system, can you recall what your bleeding system was ?? I ask this because I have found that bleeeding the calipers first and THEN bleeding the system as directed in the WSM can make a huge difference. Additionally, after you bled the brakes did you jam the brake pedal down for at least 12hrs to pressurise the system. This trick helps to expel the last remaining air bubbles in the system. Individually they amount to very little, but through the system they make a difference. Can I also confirm that you locked out the rear shoes by expanding the rear adjuster prior to bleeding the system ?? I have a Mk2 and it stops on a sixpence when needed; surprises modern drivers when driving too close !! Regards. Richard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
68vitesse Posted August 1, 2017 Report Share Posted August 1, 2017 Interested in the comments about green stuff pads as fitted some over the last winter, I bought them from the club shop several years ago. My Vitesse 2L MK1 has a servo fitted which you can do without drilling any extra holes in body or manifold, pictures in my gallery. Mot due in a couple of weeks so will try and remember to ask the examiner his opinion of the brakes, assuming it passes. My impression with the green pads is that the car brakes well but it is more difficult to lock the front wheels. Regards Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve P Posted August 2, 2017 Report Share Posted August 2, 2017 Vitesse brakes in good working condition are pretty good imho.My Herald with type 14`s is nowhere near as good. I changed to Mintex 1144 in my Vitesse last year,i know they will lock the front as i found out when trying to overtake on last years Northern tour,pulled out and saw a motorbike coming towards me. Quite dusty though. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted August 2, 2017 Report Share Posted August 2, 2017 I changed the tiny type 12s on my Vit6 for type 16s + mintex1144 + servo .......... this stops making quick stops or heading at speed into a roundabout with 12s and greenstuff proved bowel enlightening std 12 pads just created wind, something had to change ....not the pants the result with 16s+mintex +servo = raised eyebrows at the MOT when the caliper capacity on type 16 or thereabouts the master cyl was increased from 0.625 to 0.7" you could reduced pedal pressure / increase line pressure ...but increase the stroke by fitting the smaller master cyl . care taken with this idea in certain poor circumstances you can run out of travel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul H Posted August 2, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 2, 2017 Hi all, many thanks for all input and advice I didn't tighten up rear brakes to lock on before bleeding , the shoes are on the correct way round , though they weren't when I got the car. I did jump on the brakes on a road test yesterday and the front end nosed though no skidding . The shoes could well have contamination plus I can't vouch for their pedigree so will renew these. New front discs are cost effective plus new pads plus proper brake bleeding should improve matters Regards Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 2, 2017 Report Share Posted August 2, 2017 Hello Paul. When I purcahsed my Vitesse I renewed the the brake components front to rear as it had been standing for about three years and most of the brake parts looked as though they were well past their sell by date prior to that !! I purchased: new calipers via Rimmers - did a price match and they delivered to the NEC these front discs, a bit pricey but worth every penny IMO: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GD197-EBC-FRONT-BRAKE-DISCS-RC64363P-/291445271718?epid=656289249&hash=item43db7deca6:g:VO0AAOSwymxVPelU replaced all the flexi hoses with Goodridge s/s units used TRW FRONT PADs A026964 - about £18 a set nos Girling rear shoes I picked up at an Autojumble new brake M/C and S/C, not overhauled With all that fitted, I bled the system through a quite few times and ended up with an excellent responsive pedal and I do not run a servo. By the sounds of it you are almost there and the fact you can make the nose dip on your car has to indicate that the braking looks to be getting spot-on. I agree with the views on modern cars with servos, but in reality the transition from switching from modern to classic should be a very quick adjustment of braking skill. Presume you do have the correct 16P calipers on your car ?? As mentioned before, the one thing that did make a difference as far as I am concerned was the locking down of the brake pedal to its fullest extent after the brakes were bled; this was maintained for about 12hrs or so. Hope the above assists ?? Good luck. Richard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted August 2, 2017 Report Share Posted August 2, 2017 Dont forget club shoe sell discs pads and shoes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul H Posted August 3, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 3, 2017 Hello Paul. When I purcahsed my Vitesse I renewed the the brake components front to rear as it had been standing for about three years and most of the brake parts looked as though they were well past their sell by date prior to that !! I purchased: new calipers via Rimmers - did a price match and they delivered to the NEC these front discs, a bit pricey but worth every penny IMO: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GD197-EBC-FRONT-BRAKE-DISCS-RC64363P-/291445271718?epid=656289249&hash=item43db7deca6:g:VO0AAOSwymxVPelU replaced all the flexi hoses with Goodridge s/s units used TRW FRONT PADs A026964 - about £18 a set nos Girling rear shoes I picked up at an Autojumble new brake M/C and S/C, not overhauled With all that fitted, I bled the system through a quite few times and ended up with an excellent responsive pedal and I do not run a servo. By the sounds of it you are almost there and the fact you can make the nose dip on your car has to indicate that the braking looks to be getting spot-on. I agree with the views on modern cars with servos, but in reality the transition from switching from modern to classic should be a very quick adjustment of braking skill. Presume you do have the correct 16P calipers on your car ?? As mentioned before, the one thing that did make a difference as far as I am concerned was the locking down of the brake pedal to its fullest extent after the brakes were bled; this was maintained for about 12hrs or so. Hope the above assists ?? Good luck. Richard. Hi Richard, I have 16P Calipers and MC is 0.7" Regards Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve C Posted August 3, 2017 Report Share Posted August 3, 2017 I run Vitesse front brakes and master cylinder on my 1500 Herald, with type 16P calipers, S/S braided hoses, silicone fluid and EBC Green Stuff pads, but no servo. Although I am not having to arrest the forward momentum of the huge iron boat anchor that is the Vitesse engine, I have no problems stopping, and can lock the wheels in extremis if needed. You do have to adjust when stepping into a classic after driving a modern with servo, but once you remember that the servo is now your right leg muscles, it is no problem.That is what cars were like then - if nothing happened, you pushed harder! I have heard many naysayers about silicone fluid and EBC pads, but in 7 years of use, I remain happy with both. Regards Steve C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougbgt6 Posted August 5, 2017 Report Share Posted August 5, 2017 I got Mintex 11/44s from the club shop, what a difference! A vast improvement over standard pads. I also fitted grooved and dimpled disks. No improvement at all! And they were noisy, so went back to standard disks. Replaced my dead Girling servo with a Lockheed, very pleased with that. As Steve says without a servo it's all down to the muscles in your leg but as my legs grow weaker by the day...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted August 5, 2017 Report Share Posted August 5, 2017 Just your legs ??? pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT6M Posted August 5, 2017 Report Share Posted August 5, 2017 Look at yer clevis pin, an also the holes that it goes thru All 3 doo wear, clevis wears all roond brake pedal lever an MC lever wear ovalled int line of thrust as Pete says, worn bearings or badly adjusted will mek yer pads suffer pad nok back Can fit a spacer tube, an then tighten hub nut up tight, this way it meks it moer solid an dont ev t,worry about end float as much, as its set for good,!! worn oot rear brake drums are useless, as the cylinders have got moer room t,push the shoes onto drum BEFOER they start t,bite adjusting the brakes on adjuster does nowt, as its ont bottom, cyls ont top, think aboot it, !! AND, rears need t,be adjust sitting in loaded condition, as if done jacked up, then yee,l never ever get em right they become slack whenst set doon, GTs are even wuss for this So check yer rears at ride height wid a load int car Also, what is OK, v v slight drag at push speeds, becomes v v slak when brake drums get hot, as they expand, moving drum away frae cylinders, so cylinders got moer space t,tek up, = moer Brake pedal movement all this adds up to a very long brake pedal travel befoer the brakes bite some times yer pedal can be ont floor, !!! can also bung in a adjustable MC rod, a well worth wee mod Or, get some RPV valves fitted yee,l need 2 as ye got drums an discs, a 2 ana 10 lb version easy t,splice into line will work wonders for yer brake feel, M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul H Posted August 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2017 Look at yer clevis pin, an also the holes that it goes thru All 3 doo wear, clevis wears all roond brake pedal lever an MC lever wear ovalled int line of thrust as Pete says, worn bearings or badly adjusted will mek yer pads suffer pad nok back Can fit a spacer tube, an then tighten hub nut up tight, this way it meks it moer solid an dont ev t,worry about end float as much, as its set for good,!! worn oot rear brake drums are useless, as the cylinders have got moer room t,push the shoes onto drum BEFOER they start t,bite adjusting the brakes on adjuster does nowt, as its ont bottom, cyls ont top, think aboot it, !! AND, rears need t,be adjust sitting in loaded condition, as if done jacked up, then yee,l never ever get em right they become slack whenst set doon, GTs are even wuss for this So check yer rears at ride height wid a load int car Also, what is OK, v v slight drag at push speeds, becomes v v slak when brake drums get hot, as they expand, moving drum away frae cylinders, so cylinders got moer space t,tek up, = moer Brake pedal movement all this adds up to a very long brake pedal travel befoer the brakes bite some times yer pedal can be ont floor, !!! can also bung in a adjustable MC rod, a well worth wee mod Or, get some RPV valves fitted yee,l need 2 as ye got drums an discs, a 2 ana 10 lb version easy t,splice into line will work wonders for yer brake feel, M Hi GT6M, thanks for input - Will check clevis pins are ok , front bearings are adjusted & like your suggestion of fixed spacer . Rear drums are rough so ordered new ones + shoes. Pretty sure its the rear brakes letting the side down. I do have long travel - What are RPV Valves ? Regards Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT6M Posted August 5, 2017 Report Share Posted August 5, 2017 Will check clevis pins are ok , clevis pins easily changed, butt, ovalled other bits requires welding Adjustable MC rod can get rid of quite a fair bit of play front bearings are adjusted & like your suggestion of fixed spacer fitted t,most MGs, so should be able t,get one easy enough oft the useual suspects they should no wot yer on aboot or after Rear drums are rough so ordered new ones + shoes. Pretty sure its the rear brakes letting the side down. I do have long travel - yes thowt so, really gotta set the brakes LOADED up, ever jacked yer car up an tried to turn wheels,if wheels are ..hanging, this is the symptom im onaboot, the brake line alters wid hieght What are RPV Valves ? thees are one way valves that fit into brake lines if on discs all round, then only one is needed the rears requir a stronger,n as they got bigg stiff springs that the valve es t,fight against they keep a ..residual pressure int brake line, so the system is sort of pree charged I bunged one on mine{discs all round } as 4 pots up frunt, and bigg 35 mm pistons at back { yours 13 MM ish } gave a long pedal travel on fust pump after that, it wer OK now, pedal is solid, nee need for pumping NOTE, most modern,ish cars already ev em fitted into the MC as standard https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=brake+rpv&client=firefox-b&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwieodCFvMDVAhVDDcAKHcR7Cy0Q_AUICSgA&biw=1368&bih=807&dpr=1.25 https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_sop=2&_nkw=residual%20pressure%20valve&rt=nc&LH_PrefLoc=1&_trksid=p2045573.m1684 bearing spacer clips https://youtu.be/RJYIXZtnIiw?t=63 https://youtu.be/NIAfepR5VbM?t=71 M M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daverclasper Posted August 6, 2017 Report Share Posted August 6, 2017 Interesting. Always set handbrake at road height, didn't know this for normal shoe adjustment and have always set on the droop. To adjust under load and check there not binding, then I guess, if will move by pushing car, then ok ?. Cheers, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted August 7, 2017 Report Share Posted August 7, 2017 Its possible to lock up the adjusters with car siting on the road , if you can get under turn the square headed adjuster till it stop, and back it off around 4 clicks to free the wheel but its really best to lift the car to be safe on stands and then jack the upright to raise the wheel into its normal running height , this is because with the axle hanging you need the cable to be longer to connect it , then when dropped on road the cable becomes slack and you get excess handbrake lever travel and too many clicks on the handbrake ratchet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
68vitesse Posted August 22, 2017 Report Share Posted August 22, 2017 Ref. previous post about green stuff pads, which some people do not like, I fitted to my Vitesse over the winter. Just got back from getting a brand new MOT on the car and I asked the examiner about the brakes, his reply was that they where very good and exceeded the requirement of the test. Regards Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted August 22, 2017 Report Share Posted August 22, 2017 Interesting. Always set handbrake at road height, didn't know this for normal shoe adjustment and have always set on the droop. To adjust under load and check there not binding, then I guess, if will move by pushing car, then ok ?. Cheers, Dave I really do not think it matters when adjusting the shoes. And for most cars the cables to. However Rotoflex does need the car to be at ride height to get the cable adjustment correct. ((i often disconnect the cables when adjusting the shoes) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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