Anglefire Posted April 21, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2019 Took it out this morning to give it a bit of a run and I've broken it Head gasket has gone by the looks of things - lots of white smoke - Which is a royal PITA - I put the right gasket on as far as I can tell - Payen and spec's for a 1500. All torqued down correctly. Took the spark plugs out and number 4 is wet - first thought it was petrol but swapped plugs and the same - then smelt it (I have a very bad sense of smell) and it doesn't. Bit peed off to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted April 21, 2019 Report Share Posted April 21, 2019 does the gasket have the tag sticking out the rear end ??? ever so early life fails are generally down to recessed bores and wrong gasket Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougbgt6 Posted April 21, 2019 Report Share Posted April 21, 2019 Mark, That's tough, the inclination is to close the garage door and go down the pub. My brother's just found his clutch repair hasn't worked, it's all got to come out again, but he doesn't want to. He can wait to regain enthusiasm, but your head will have to come off asap, you don't want water sitting in the bores. Your problem has to be something basic, what Pete says or faulty gasket, loose stud, loose nut. Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparky_Spit Posted April 21, 2019 Report Share Posted April 21, 2019 Sorry to hear that AF. I feel your pain as I've just gone through something similar. I think I've identified the cause in my case, fixed it, and now the engine is running really well. There's a blind jigging hole right next to cylinder no1 and another next to cylinder no 4, which reduces the support for the gasket material around the fire ring at that point. Have a look at http://sideways-technologies.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/8224-advice-please-gasket-fire-ring-failure-on-new-engine/ ...where the cause for my problem and fix is documented. Hopefully yours will be an easy fix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglefire Posted April 21, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2019 50 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said: does the gasket have the tag sticking out the rear end ??? ever so early life fails are generally down to recessed bores and wrong gasket Pete Yes tab to the rear. 25 minutes ago, dougbgt6 said: Mark, That's tough, the inclination is to close the garage door and go down the pub. My brother's just found his clutch repair hasn't worked, it's all got to come out again, but he doesn't want to. He can wait to regain enthusiasm, but your head will have to come off asap, you don't want water sitting in the bores. Your problem has to be something basic, what Pete says or faulty gasket, loose stud, loose nut. Doug I never thought of the water sat in the bores. I will get it off later today then. After lunch (Non-liquid ) and once its cooled down some more. Sparky - I'll have a look at that next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglefire Posted April 21, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2019 Interesting problem Sparky - I was expecting a long thread - but not so! Don't fancy having to block those holes up. I hope its just either muppetry on my part of a bad gasket. I got it from James Paddock - part number GEG1195P - which is the head set and recessed. I've ordered up a CK261 head set from Parts in Motion off ebay - which is meant to be a genuine Payen kit. Time will tell - it is more than the Paddocks one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglefire Posted April 21, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2019 Well. Head is off. Nothing particularly obvious except this. Just a very small gap in the gasket material between the fire ring and the water hole. Potentially the head wasn’t bolted down tight enough as it didn’t seem that hard to undo - though I was using a 2’ breaker bar! All bar three of the studs came out of the head. I already have flanged nuts but do I replace the studs and nuts or just re-use them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougbgt6 Posted April 21, 2019 Report Share Posted April 21, 2019 Studs shouldn't be gorilla tight in the block, some say finger tight, but I think just nipped in. Surprised they came out. Are they the original studs or new? Some say you can reuse the nuts once or twice, but not the washers. The washers should be hardened and sold as head nut washers. Surprised you've used flanged nuts. Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglefire Posted April 21, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2019 I used flanged nuts on recommendation from somewhere - I forget where - as they are a combined but and washer (no separate washer is specified) and are hardened. I think Minis use them. Nuts have been used twice now in theory. According the the torque specs, the studs should be as tight - pretty much as the nuts. The annoying thing is that I’m away next weekend and then working away from home for a couple of weeks so will not get chance to fix anything until the next bank holiday probably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparky_Spit Posted April 21, 2019 Report Share Posted April 21, 2019 The flanged nuts from Minispares are very good. You get to know what looks and feels like a properly engineered bit of kit and what's been made of cheese to a price, and the Minispares ones are the proper job. If yours look undamaged in the threads and screw onto the studs with no slop then I would re-use them, but it's up to you of course. They're quite cheap so if you are going to have a delay before you do the work anyway, you could order new ones to be there for when you get back, and be 100% sure. I've always just nipped-up head studs with two nuts locked together, but never up as high as those torque figures show. So that's interesting.... Without wishing to teach grandmothers to suck eggs, do be careful to check that the tops of the stud holes in the block are not showing any "pulled-up" threads, as this will prevent proper gasket clamping. Any pulled threads can be removed with a countersink, or a 1/2" drill bit at a push. It's good to see that your fire rings are intact, so your problem is not the same as mine was. Do make sure that the recesses the fire rings sit in are absolutely clean and have a nice square inside corner between the flat and vertical surfaces. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglefire Posted April 21, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2019 I was actually looking at the ones from MOSS - which are £1.96 each - 3/8" - but the ones from Mini spares http://www.minispares.com/product/Classic/Engine/Cylinder_heads/Studs_bolts_nuts/C-AHT287.aspx?100409&ReturnUrl=/product/Classic/Engine/Cylinder_heads/Studs_bolts_nuts/CAM4545.aspx|Back to are 1/2 the price and look the same - but don't give a size - but a quick search does suggest they are also 3/8" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglefire Posted April 21, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2019 I will check again for thread pull - I didn't see any when I took the head off- but wasn't really looking - though if there had, I'm sure the rag I used to wipe it down would have snagged on any! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglefire Posted April 21, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2019 Had a brain wave. Checked the moss site for the head bolt for a mini - and it's the same. So I'll get them from mini spares as they are half price. i might change the studs for the heck of it too. Wonder who supplies moss? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted April 22, 2019 Report Share Posted April 22, 2019 Mark, a story from the sarf coast. Friend changed head gasket with a decent looking one when he fitted a new head. OK, it is a GT6, but that is not relevent here. Anyway, shortly after fitting the gasket started leaking, much as yours. Head off, expecting it to be a blown gasket. But it actually looked perfect, and yes, was the correct gasket. Head checked and was flat. Block too. Fitted a payen gasket, and problem solved. No idea why the other gasket failed, but hopefully is is the same issue you have. And to quote Tusk, "may there be a special place in hell for those who " .........make rubbish gaskets, or indeed other substandard parts (no more B word) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglefire Posted April 22, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2019 Thanks Clive. But I did fit a Payen one. That’s what I find odd. Unless it is just that slight bit of damage. I’ve ordered new studs and head bolts this morning. Probably overkill - but for the sake of £40 or so (Canley for studs - 1/2 the price of Moss) and Minispares for nuts - again 1/2 the price of Moss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted April 22, 2019 Report Share Posted April 22, 2019 Hmm, odd. But didn't somebody post something (!) about Payen have=ing moved factories and quality has dropped. I will see if I can find it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglefire Posted April 25, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2019 Gasket set has arrived today and looks to be all present and correct. has the tab at the top and fire rings for the recessed cylinders. Wont be doing anything though until a week Saturday at least as I’m away to Germany tonight and then working away from home most of next week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted April 25, 2019 Report Share Posted April 25, 2019 On 22/04/2019 at 18:42, clive said: Hmm, odd. But didn't somebody post something (!) about Payen have=ing moved factories and quality has dropped. I will see if I can find it.... oh god if Payen's qualities gone what are we going to be able to use! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted April 25, 2019 Report Share Posted April 25, 2019 I think it was Tony Lindsey-Dean posting. And (call me cynical, here) he is getting some "special" gaskets made. So in retrospect, maybe he is trying to shift stock? Or maybe there are issues? Who knows. Answer, as always, is to buy proper NoS stuff when you see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted April 25, 2019 Report Share Posted April 25, 2019 I think the biggest cause of head and exhaust gasket failures could be down to the correct fixing bolt torque not being maintained over time. With usage the heating and cooling of components seems to reduce the clamping force and I wonder if this is why modern design has gone to stretch bolts. However for us the only solution would be to periodically re-torque bolts (which of course in some cases isnt easy) and this certainly seems to have worked on my exhaust gasket...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted April 25, 2019 Report Share Posted April 25, 2019 certainly washer deformation is an issue but this hasnt been anywhere yet . torque to yield is used by many but its a one use only and they want a fortune for the bolt sets , ive got a TTY meter if anyone wishes to pull nuts studs up to its max limit before any yield takes place they are good and measure the climb in torque vs the rotation of the fixing , anything beyond the window blows a whistle at you Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppy916 Posted April 25, 2019 Report Share Posted April 25, 2019 Clive all I could find is that Payen gaskets are made by Goetze http://www.federalmogul.com/en-US/OE/Markets/Pages/Product-Details.aspx?ApplicationId=77&CategoryId=46&ProductId=228 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglefire Posted April 27, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2019 On the canley classics website. https://www.canleyclassics.com/technical-archive/oil-consumption it suggests using hylomar around the oil feed hole to the rockets. Is this seen as a good idea or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted April 27, 2019 Report Share Posted April 27, 2019 3 hours ago, Anglefire said: it suggests using hylomar around the oil feed hole to the rockets. Is this seen as a good idea or not? I do this. Not sure it makes all that much difference though - still get some "sweating" under the plugs though my head is very thin just there due to huge skim. Don't put the Hylomar too close to the actual rocker feed oil hole as it spreads when the head is torqued down and you don't want it squeezed into the oil way, the compression ring should stop that but...... I usually leave a 5mm clear ring around the hole. Nick 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted April 27, 2019 Report Share Posted April 27, 2019 If you want to. But he sparing. It's a tiny drilling, a tinier fragment of sealant could block it. John 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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