Servo

[petegardner_901]

Hi all

The original servo fitted to my later GT6 operated on the front brakes only  - as I'm probably going to fit a servo on the Spitfire 1500 now I was wondering what peoples' thoughts are on connecting it to the front brakes only as well?   Not sure if the rear brakes do much anyway apart from the handbrake...

Couple of pix here - the GT6 is now 'work in progress'

Keep well...

Pete

[dougbgt6]

Pete,

Ah! Ha! Something I know about. My original Girling servo never worked very well, I never bothered to fix it, but then I started loosing brake fluid. Where was it? In the servo vacuum chamber! . So new servo time, I got a Lockheed type now favoured over the original Girling.

Lots of problems, but along the way I discovered that before the late, (February 73), GT6 upgrade a servo was a factory extra and worked on all 4 wheels. However, the late GT6 has a bigger diameter brake cylinders and wider drums, ie better rear brakes. I think this is why the servo's only on the front wheels. To confirm this I connected my new servo to all 4 wheels and the braking was......odd! The back dipped far more and it all felt unsafe. 

On the Spitfire I would go for all four wheels, but it's easy enough to experiment! Worst bit is on the Spitfire you will have to drill and tap the manifold to get the vacuum connection.

Doug

 

 

[JohnD]

Unless you have a weak right leg - and some do! - the best place for a servo is the parts bin.    Or the bin.

It cannot "improve" braking, just make the brakes work with less foot pressure, and if you will accept a lttle  more travel, a smaller master cylinder will do that.

Ask Nick Jones.

John

[dougbgt6]

Oh! For goodness sake! The Luddites are all around us. How often have I heard this nonsense?!! All modern cars have servos, Triumphs have servos. Get thee back to the dark side Mr D!

Doug

[Pete Lewis]

to keep the brake balance on a spit its all 4  but has your 1500 got spit line , many are, 

 that would need two servos !!!!!!!!!!!  so starts the nightmare

 

 

[petegardner_901]

Ha! No, single line thank heavens ( no bleeding problem if you’ll forgive the pun) 

[Pete Lewis]

if you decide you need to search around prices of the  fits all kit is very variable 

who ever sells the kit is just a servo a bracket and some hose they are not model conscious   where and how you make it all fit is up to you

agree with John, will not improve the  foundation braking but does reduce pedal loads and improves  the Oh sh1t syndrome feeling 

have you tried mintex 1144 pads ????   a great upgrade 

Pete

[Nick Jones]

All 4 to maintain the correct balance as Pete says. As the Spit is 5/8” bore m/c there isn’t a smaller option.

Pete is quite right about the 1144 brake pads. If you are using standard pads at present you will find the 1144s provide a very useful increase in bite/reduction in pedal pressure. I had actually bought a servo to put on my Vitesse, then tried 1144s.   Servo eventually went on my GT6 years later.

Worth a try....

Nick

[NonMember]

51 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

agree with John, will not improve the  foundation braking but does reduce pedal loads and improves  the Oh sh1t syndrome feeling 

Well... yes and no. If you have just a little bit of servo then it helps. If you over-servo to the extreme feather-touch level of most modern cars then, in an "oh shit" moment, you lock all four wheels and careen off into the impact completely out of control. Unless you have ABS, too, of course.

[Clive]

On my spitfire, I have not felt the need for a servo. I can get in and it feels perfectly fine (in fact, feels great). The wife agrees.

However, my Toledo is a different matter, I think it came out the factory with drum fronts, but at some point in its miserable life gained front discs/calipers. And when it came to me it had a servo assisted master cylinder. However, that was intermittent and despite attempts to fix, it got removed (intermittent is never good with brakes)

I persisted without a servo master, and used the smaller spitfire sized 5/8 to help with pedal effort. But it never felt great, and my wife (a regular user of the car) regularly commented on the brakes not being very good. 

With a RBRR looming, and 2 non-triumph owners sharing the drive, I was spurred into action. I forked out about £70 to MGB Hive and bought a 1.9 boost servo kit. Fitted in a morning, and everybody happy. It just feels "better" in terms of effort, and now my wife says she can swap between cars without having a "moment" the first time she uses teh brakes.

This Toledo issue is largely down to the front brakes being tiny, smaller than a spitfire, despite being a heavier car. The BL bodge was servos, with the Sprint having exactly the same front brakes (admittedly slightly better pad material when new, but these days???) but the used bigger servos on the sprints. Scary approach if you ask me. So I am in the long-term process of fitting GT6 sized vented discs and larger calipers... whether that means I can remove the servo remains to be seen.

[Pete Lewis]

clive note on mgb hive is just as i said  its the same kit  and you may find some with a higher ratio if you search but the 1.9 is about our normal standard  and yes prices are from offers of 70 up to 140 for the same kit ,  so if in the market do some homework it can save you ££££ss

Pete

[68vitesse]

Fitted a servo to my Vitesse years ago to reduce pedal effort, didn't drill the manifold used 16mm banjo fittings and made up a 5/8UNF banjo bolt to fit the existing smiths valve tapping.

Don't know if there is an existing tapping you could adapt on the Spitfire manifold.

Regards

Paul

[petegardner_901]

Hi Paul

Thanks for that - just went and had a look and found this...

[JohnD]

15 hours ago, dougbgt6 said:

Oh! For goodness sake! The Luddites are all around us. How often have I heard this nonsense?!! All modern cars have servos, Triumphs have servos. Get thee back to the dark side Mr D!

Doug

Gosh, doug!  Such vehemence!

Just analyse why moderns have servos.    They also have Antilock systems, Electronic Stability Control and Traction Control Systems, all of which are fitted to prevent the incompetent driver (the 'average' in most countries) from losing control.     If you want to include yourself in that group, fine, but I don't think you do, or are!    

John

[PeteH]

Hi

Thinking, I may just fit a servo to the 13/60 when I get to that point. So looking at prices. They are as high if not higher than £145 down to £75?.

What I also note is that most are "Lockheed" TYPE, in the advertising?. which suggests that genuine one`s are NLA?. That being the case, the likelihood is they are Ex China?.

Pete

[Pete Lewis]

keep taking the pills      ha !   some need all the help there is 

steering wheel and Cadance works for me in the classic   but you cant use that in a  abs 'd modern 

after a heart attack Im all for a light pedal  .... well   you know  .....what ever 

Pete

 

[Pete Lewis]

if they are chinky  does that mean you stop sideways on 

Pete

[Colin Lindsay]

I just had a quick look round the net and it appears you can still get Girling servos but any of those I clicked on are huge money, and I didn't find any that were stated as dedicated for Triumphs.

Modern cars have too many gadgets to lull drivers to sleep, the current 'night vision' one seems to show that it's okay to go out jogging with your dog in dark clothing at night, run across roads with no regards to traffic, and then expect the driver to have purchased the necessary upgrade in equipment to spot and avoid you. I note the driver must have had the horn removed and did not have an extensive vocabulary, which is not usually the case in real life....

[PeteH]

 

Just now, Pete Lewis said:

if they are chinky  does that mean you stop sideways on 

Pete

Hi.

Old habits die hard. Even on my modern I still habitually use the brakes "On Off" style. It also paid well driving 9t of America R-V down grade on the "Divide" in The USA. and the Pyrenees to and from Spain. The last thing you need then is "brake fade"!.

[NonMember]

57 minutes ago, petegardner_901 said:

Hi Paul

Thanks for that - just went and had a look and found this...

Yep, that's the servo tapping for a 1500 Dolomite, which used the same manifold.

[dougbgt6]

John,

Vehemence. Excellent word!

When I had my servo problems there was no TSSC forum and I asked for help on Club Torque. 3 responders immediately told me I didn't need a servo and I should remove it, all you need is a strong right thigh. The usual macho twaddle, one had daughters who drove Triumphs and they didn't have a problem, why did I? All I wanted was advice on getting my servo to work.

If the servo is a standard fitting, as it is on late GT6s, it's an MOT fail to remove it. Bizarrely there's no MOT test for it, the manual simply says "is it there?" So it doesn't need to work, just has to be there.

Given that fact my responders said "Who's to know you've taken it off?!!" Well, it was my MOT man actually told me about the servo anomaly, he was an apprentice in a Triumph dealership and I'm certain would spot the marks and empty bolt holes where the servo used to be. My Troll's response was "Take it to another MOT station"

On another thread I referred to the rear hydraulic cylinder as a slave cylinder.  One of the same said "No! No! get it right it's a brake cylinder!" His only contribution to the thread.

I didn't renew my Club Triumph membership.

Since then, unless thread drifting or poking fun I try to answer the question. Pete Gardener asked should he put the servo on all 4 wheels or just the front?

Your response?  "Bin it! You don't need a servo just a strong right thigh!" Great advice John and oh, that's an M reg GT6 a LATE mk3 I think.

Doug

[NonMember]

Doug,

I remember both those threads and I think you're misrepresenting them somewhat.

[Colin Lindsay]

I think the misconception of some owners (Not our OP here!) is that they believe a servo will bring their brakes up to modern standards, which as many other posters have pointed out is not the case.

I must agree with Doug that the problem with many threads is that they veer from what the OP wants, to what subsequent posters think he should do as an alternative or in some cases as an extreme modification, which can be frustrating if, like me, you have the part already and want the challenge of making it work. I'm all for suggestions and debate (not forgetting thread drift) but the original question can sometimes be submerged and therefore go unanswered.

[Pete Lewis]

this is the std kit that is just a universal kit , you know  the one size fits all idea  use it on everything there is wartburg to jaguar 

and yes Triumph  all are the same kit fits all or fits nothing 

it mounts at an angle to aid bleed through , does not have a bleeder of its own.

i had two on the Vit 6 one always hung on with many strips and head scratches , the second i guess is still going ok ,but was more lively 

and no it wasnt the air valve or stiff pushrod etc.

and with single line braking its still on all 4 wheels unless it was designed to have just fronts if thats the case always copy the triumph design  as it always does what it says on the tin 

 

Pete

[JohnD]

3 hours ago, dougbgt6 said:

John,

Vehemence. Excellent word!

When I had my servo problems there was no TSSC forum and I asked for help on Club Torque. 3 responders immediately told me I didn't need a servo and I should remove it, all you need is a strong right thigh. The usual macho twaddle, one had daughters who drove Triumphs and they didn't have a problem, why did I? All I wanted was advice on getting my servo to work.

If the servo is a standard fitting, as it is on late GT6s, it's an MOT fail to remove it. Bizarrely there's no MOT test for it, the manual simply says "is it there?" So it doesn't need to work, just has to be there.

Given that fact my responders said "Who's to know you've taken it off?!!" Well, it was my MOT man actually told me about the servo anomaly, he was an apprentice in a Triumph dealership and I'm certain would spot the marks and empty bolt holes where the servo used to be. My Troll's response was "Take it to another MOT station"

On another thread I referred to the rear hydraulic cylinder as a slave cylinder.  One of the same said "No! No! get it right it's a brake cylinder!" His only contribution to the thread.

I didn't renew my Club Triumph membership.

Since then, unless thread drifting or poking fun I try to answer the question. Pete Gardener asked should he put the servo on all 4 wheels or just the front?

Your response?  "Bin it! You don't need a servo just a strong right thigh!" Great advice John and oh, that's an M reg GT6 a LATE mk3 I think.

Doug

Thnak you, Doug!    If you gotta have it, you gotta have it!

But I wasn't one of your previous interlocutors, nor did I say,  "Bin it! You don't need a servo just a strong right thigh!"!     I said, "Bin it ... unless you have a weak leg"

Some people do, arthritis, or Pete, just out of Coronary Care (Huzzah!) and have good reason to want one.     But it's an added complication, and I like to KISS as they say.

 

Colin points out that Triumph brakes are as good as moderns when it comes to stopping.  Maybe not if you want ESC, but a servo won't give you that!    And that the thrill of fitting something new to your car is great, because we can!  Try doing that to a modern!     I spent much of last year trying to get MegaJolt, programmable ignition, working on mine.    Turned out that the problem was my laptop, whose USB interface had failed!   Still haven't got inspired to try again yet.