Hot non starter

[1in10]

Evening

I hate to bang the same drum, but I managed to take the Vitesse 2l for a drive during our one day of summer yesterday.

It was even hot enough to put the roof down, nice.

I wrote about this problem about a year ago, and I guess I haven't got her hot enough for the problem to reoccur, and the problem does not appear to have gone away.

The problem is, it runs well for about 10/20 miles, then it starts to pink, then grinds to a halt.

It will turn over immediately after stopping, and sounds as if it will turn over, but that's it, for about 20 minutes while I have the hood up for it to cool down on the side of the road with everyone craning their neck and waving, or at least I think they're waving.

It turns over and starts after a good rest, but it would be nice to take her out and not worry about turning the car off, dreading not starting.

I have an electric fuel pump in the boot, with all new pipes and a filter through to the Stromberg 150cd or could be cds as I have just noticed a very small s separate from the cd letters, not sure. As well as heat shields behind the carbs.

Balanced the carbs, only a little though, front was weak and back was rich, I haven't been able to give it a double check as I let her cool down and have not been back yet.

Cleaned the sparks,1, 2, 4 and 5 were dark brown, except for 3 and 6 which were grey.

I have read all the posts in this forum, including other forums, about the carbs and the myth of fuel starvation, but it's almost as if the electric fuel pump stops pumping when hot and the fuel in the float chamber evaporates.

Thanks all in advance and I look forward to any thoughts, thanks.

Richard

[johny]

Hi Richard, can you pull off a carb connection and, with a lot of care, see if fuel is still being delivered once this has happened?

[poppyman]

Hi Richard, points and condenser or electronic ignition?

Tony.

[NonMember]

I don't think I said this last year but I had problems with fuel delivery when hot on my Vitesse - not as marked as you describe but similar conditions and it would cause it to stop completely until cooled. That was with a temporary fuel pump fitted (long story involving HC4500) so I tried an electric pump but it didn't really help. Putting her back to a refurbished genuine glass-bowl AC Delco pump fixed the problem.

[dougbgt6]

I’m with Johny. Take a jam jar with you, when it happens whip off the fuel line from the carb and into the jar. Turn the engine, have you got fuel?

Doug

[Pete Lewis]

i feel its odd that you get pinking before it stops weak mixtures dont generally cause pinking, but the steady grind to a halt rather than an instant stop does seem fuel related 

in that the power down s progressive as the float bowl gets emptied 

some electric pumps need a fixed  head of fuel to keep primed does the tank level have any effect on the time to die ???? im thinking the vitesse/ herald tank do not have head of fuel it pure suction to get fuel up the dip tube as its out the top of the tank , whats the state of the small hose that joins tank to pipe ???

and check the filler cap is breathing easy

Pete

[Paul H]

I have an inline glass fuel filter before the carbs on my Mk2 Vitesse . A visible indication of fuel 

Paul 

[1in10]

All

Thanks for the quick replies and apologies for my lack of automotive knowledge regarding pinking, it's clearly not pinning but it does judder a few times before grinding to a halt.

It has electronic ignition.

The pipes are all new, including to from tank to pump and this happened with a quarter of a tank but with a full tank several times last year.

My filter is front of the carbs and I can confirm the fuel was not reaching the fitter until cool but I don't notice it this time. Ill check later if I can get her out today if not next week.

Thanks again

Richard

 

 

[Colin Lindsay]

1 hour ago, 1in10 said:

My filter is front of the carbs and I can confirm the fuel was not reaching the fitter until cool but I don't notice it this time. Ill check later if I can get her out today if not next week.

I was going to suggest flooding; excess fuel builds up until the carbs flood, but then evaporates so that after a time you can drive again,  but if there's no fuel that's hardly likely.

On the other hand, could it be a blocked breather at the fuel tank - the vacuum builds up until the pump can't overcome it and so can no longer pump? Have you tried it with the fuel cap off? 

 

[dougbgt6]

1 hour ago, 1in10 said:

My filter is front of the carbs and I can confirm the fuel was not reaching the fitter until cool

You have a blockage or vacuum in the tank or something wrong with the electric pump. Test for vacuum by undoing the fuel cap, you may hear a whoosh as the air goes in. Do you have the original mechanical pump? You may have to re-fit it. Blockage doesn't sound likely as you've fitted new pipe work, although there may be something floating around in the tank. but why would heat set it off? I think pump or vacuum.

Doug

[1in10]

Colin Doug

There is no whoosh from the fuel when undone, so don't believe their to be air in the tank.

I am trying to use the car more do may be moving crud in the tank about.

It's an SU Electric Fuel pump, could even that little rise from the tank be a problem.

I also found a kink in house from the Emission Valve to the Inlet Manifold.

Although I'm interested in the folding theory.

Both are easy fixes.

Richard

 

[johny]

Just to be clear Richard the vacuum produced in the tank wont be there all the time. The theory is that as you start driving fuel is being pumped from the tank to the carbs and as the the fuel level goes down air has to enter the tank to replace it. If this doesnt happen at a sufficient rate an increasing vacuum will be pulled until eventually the pump cant draw anymore fuel and the engine stops. You have to check for the vacuum immediately at this point by removing the fuel cap and listening for an inrush of air otherwise air will slowly enter, the vacuum disappears and the engine will run again.... 

[Peter Truman]

In the early 90's my daughters Dolly Sprint stopped repeatedly as the tank couldn't breathe, welder doing exhaust repairs collapsed the fuel tank breather pipe which in turn totally collapsed the fuel tank the top caved in by around 2 inch's, it had to e replaced!

Her Spitfire also had a stop start event that was a failure of the little plastic bush that holds the carb bowls vertical, which then rotated back from vertical towards the exhaust extracters and caused intermittent vapour locks the car would loose all power and splutter to a stop, replaced the bush the float bowls remained vertical I also fitted a heat shield and no further problems. that problem took some working out even removed the head?

Electric pumps don't like sucking a negative pressure, on my Vitesse I have modified the fuel pick up from the tank to be from the bottom by removing the drain plug & using plumbing fittings to screw directly into the drain plug thread with the pipe drawing from the same depth as the original suck out of the top pipe. The electric Facet pump installed says its max suction is 13inch's and there dead on so it made drawing fuel through the original top of the tank notional.

[AidanT]

5 hours ago, 1in10 said:

It has electronic ignition.

Can you confirm the make?

I had similar symptoms with a cheap electronic ignition system set 

Aidan

 

 

[thescrapman]

I encountered the vacuum in tank problem with a mates PI saloon that I was getting running better for him.

it had a locking fuel cap that did not fit very well, so I swapped it for an original one. I drive about 1000 miles in it. No issues.

He took over the testing and it broke down twice in 60 miles.

Seems his right foot was much heavier than mine!!

unbeknown to us a previous owner had fitted a non-PI tank and used the breather connection for the PRV return.

[Pete Lewis]

yes there is no seperate breather on H and V cars it just relies on the cap venting .

pete

[1in10]

Evening all

Just a quick update and thanks for all your replies as they have certainly been fitted and given me confidence troubleshooting on the side of the road.

Right, first journey out was short in a good but of heat and given a bit of heavy foot closer to home just in case with out any interruptions. But I still felt uneasy as the problem would not have just gone away.

The next journey was a week later again in some good heat and the journey was a bit longer with a very different outcome. Three unscheduled stop and no chance to use a heavy foot.

The first was a shirt breakdown after a few judders and a grid to a halt. No hiss of air from the fuel cap with the fuel pump busting into life add I shut the boot, which may have been an indication of a problem.

The second breakdown was a closer to home after about 10 miles with a longer break. I carried out the same checks no hiss of air from the fuel cap but no life from the fuel pump either with little fuel in the filter. A brief wait at the side of the road and the fuel pump filed the filter and of I went.

The third was within a stone's throw of the house and reintroduced my dead mans click problem as well add no hiss from the fuel cap and no action from the fuel pump. Tools out time add this was pushing its luck.

Using Doug's jump from negative to the starter got the engine turning, thanks, further investigation at home revealed it to be a break in the anti theft battery terminal which I have now cleaned up. I also tightened the connecting nut on the starter terminal which attached the negative cable to the starter as this had also become lose.

A good look around the fuel pump showed the live terminal was also lose possibly causing the the pump to work intermittently.

My last journey out was on the last of the hot days without any unscheduled stops but I am still a little issue if I have fixed the problems. Time will tell.

Ask that aside the electric starter appears to whiz at very fast speed, more than usual, before starting. Have I done something wrong.

Thanks again to one and all.

Richard

 

[Pete Lewis]

tightening terminals cant do any harm i would ponder the the stater was always slow due to poor terninal contact and now its up to speed 

Pete

[Colin Lindsay]

That has happened to me a lot recently with my electrical work on the GT6; if I simply drop the battery terminals onto the battery the starter doesn't turn at all and I have to tighten the terminals with a spanner before they'll spin the starter. That circuit seems to need a good tight connection.

[Pete Lewis]

the trouble with taper post battery clamps ( and others) is they get a hard oxidised coating that takes some hard mechanical scraping to remove from the post and inside the clamp 

if you use sand paper do clean well to remove and grit residue ,

when done a good squirt of grease over to keep the air our helps , not on the terminal clamp surfaces ...unless you want to insulate it again 

they used to use a waxy lanolin based stuff  , but  anything from vaseline to multi purpose is fine 

Pete

[poppyman]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Car-Battery-Post-Terminal-Cleaner-Wire-Brush-Tool-Van-Vehicle-Corrosion-Remover/193599913833?hash=item2d13743f69:g:MNoAAOSwqfVfLSz3

These used to be good, always had one in my overalls pocket   Dont know if the new ones are any good?

Tony.

[Pete Lewis]

you make me remember things i thought i had forgotten 

if youre a cheap skate  !!!          a good rasping with some gland nut pliers roughs it all up quite well  

but if kept in the back pocket dont  Sit down 

you need good  bright shiny lead , 

 

 

[poppyman]

37 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

you make me remember things i thought i had forgotten 

if youre a cheap skate  !!!          a good rasping with some gland nut pliers roughs it all up quite well  

but if kept in the back pocket dont  Sit down 

you need good  bright shiny lead , 

 

 

I always kept the cap on Pete, i only had one reminder of the spiky bit. You must remember gluing a penny to a battery Pete? Or were they farthings??  Cue what the hell is a farthing......

Tony.

[Colin Lindsay]

41 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

if youre a cheap skate  !!!          a good rasping with some gland nut pliers roughs it all up quite well  

Wish I'd know what they were called when I had the TR7; I had to tighten the gland nuts on top of the front suspension struts with a combination of plumber's spanners and an angle grinder tool.