Flooding Carbs - Fire Risk and high fuel loss

[Top Banana]

All,

I have read all the threads on Carbs flooding and petrol pooring out of the Air fliter box. I had this on my GT6 Mk1 with Stromberg CD 150's, I went 20 miles and lost almost a quarter of the tank. The danger of the situation was; in my mind I thought perhaps I didnt read the fuel gauge correctly when I left the drive way but it had definitely moved a lot but I couldnt piece together the cause ( I am a pilot and you are taught to measure fuel in flight based on time and distance, planes have flow meters - litres/hr like a trip counter to keep you situationally aware at all times).

That day I was driving to meet a friend and show him my new toy. It was only the fact that I stopped and lifted the bonnet to show off and Rev the 6 cyclinder beast; that he immediately noticed a big puddle of fuel on the ground. Panic set in as I saw fuel running out of the Air filter box and rushed to switch off the engine. Roadside repair coming up; so out came the tools and I found the float chamber needle stuck and reluctant to rise and fall, lots of wiggling the jet and wiping a paste like congealed gell on most items, it took a couple of rebuilds to make the car behave enough to drive homel. 

Next day I rebuilt and cleaned that carb again and sealed the gasket on the float chamber. I was too lazy to do the other carb and guess what one day later is also failed and leaked. My carbs were reconditioned/exchange with less than  300 miles, but perhaps its more the 10 years with little use and old fuel that caused the issue.

So my main reason for worry on that day apart from the car being unrealiable and fuel waste, was the Fire Risk. I have to wonder why the Exhaust and Fuel / Carbs are on the same side of the engine (was it cost or ease of manufacture), when some FORD engines have cross flow heads?

Question: Who carries a fire extinguisher, what size is big enough and if there is a fire under the bonnet would a fire blanket help. I watched the fire brigade struggle to put engine fires and they have lots of gear.

I been looking at AA fire extinguishers and they have a nice 1Kg one for about £22 on Amazon. Next question is where/how to store it and secure it in the car so it dosent start panel beating the interior, I am reluctant to drill holes but sensible enough to do it. 

Thank you

John

 

 

 

 

 

[Wagger]

I have motorhome fire extinguishers and have never had to use one. They are 'Dry powder' I believe and it can be very difficult to clean up afterwards if they are used.

BMW had cross flow way before Ford but their first mechanical injection model could pump fuel in large volume if a pipe failed. The 'Safest' thing that you can do is to fit a device that senses pressure loss. If you are using an electric pump use it to shut the pump off. If you have a mechanical pump use the same device to cut the ignition.

Then the problem will be that the engine could cease to run in the fast lane, posing another danger.

[Dick Twitchen]

8 hours ago, Top Banana said:

when some FORD engines have cross flow heads?

John,

Not in the era when our engines were developed, late 60's iirc when Ford started with the Kent engine.

I have a powder extinguisher, but also have a roll cage to strap it to and from my Naval time have received fire fighting training.  I believe the fire issue boils down to size/where/what/chance of success and your determination for want of a better word.  Last time my extinguisher was used was at Classic Le Mans campsite several years ago when I and another retired Naval Officer sorted out a blazing stove (incorrectly assembled then started) in among tents whilst others retreated. 

Dick

[Josef]

Dry powder is definitely a pain to clean up, speaking from experience of having put out a minor laboratory fire and then having to clean up afterwards. 
I have had lab based fire fighting training, certainly won’t be up to the level of Dick’s naval experience, but the expectation was if you catch something immediately and its small enough you can deal with it then do so. Otherwise get out, sound the alarm, call the fire service. Fires involving flammable liquids (oil and petrol!) are particularly dangerous, and a tiny car size extinguisher is not going to cope with anything other than a tiny fire. By the time an engine bay has got going it’ll be like spitting on a bonfire.

I know we’d all be devastated to watch one of our cars burn, but when the alternative is putting your life in danger… Let the professionals deal with it. The best cure in this case is prevention, make sure your fuel system especially is in perfect shape, check you have proper R9 fuel hose too and if in doubt replace!

[dougbgt6]

Petrol dripping on the exhaust is unlikely to catch fire, petrol needs a spark or flame.  Brake fluid is far more dangerous and will catch if dripped on the exhaust, fortunately this is physically unlikely to happen, but a good reason to switch to silicone. 

 I have been in a van that caught fire, it went from a puff of smoke to 30 foot flames in seconds.

A carpet cleaner had to be let into my daughter's flat. I turned up to let him in, it was raining and I sat briefly in the passenger seat while he found his paper work. We noticed a curl of smoke coming from an air vent, we got out and he attempted to lift the bonnet, but then a flame and we retreated. It was spectacular, the heat and the flames, incredible! The fire brigade arrived within minutes, but it was all over and the van completely gutted. I can't emphasis enough how quickly it happened.

Would an extinguisher been of any use? Not in this case. My advise, if you see smoke, GET OUT and AWAY as fast as you can!

Doug

[NonMember]

Not meaning to detract from anything Josef said but the fuel system is not the highest fire risk under the bonnet. Petrol is more volatile than flammable - contact with the exhaust manifold merely vaporises it. Oil is not that flammable until it's really hot, so it just tends to smoke. The one that will self-ignite on a hot exhaust is brake fluid. So make sure all your plumbing is in good working order.

(And I see Doug just beat me to it)

[Ian Foster]

10 hours ago, Top Banana said:

question is where/how to store it and secure it in the car

John

I have a 600g dry powder extinguisher which fits nicely inside the forks of my steering lock and both are placed under the front edge of the drivers seat, nestling behind the cross member.

Nice and close for action if required (but hopefully not....ever!)

Ian

[Pete Lewis]

I carry two lidl powder ones in the boot  , based on the fire is more likely to be up front , but i only used one once when we welded a newly waxed door and it made flames 8ft high the working are looked like a flour mill the powder goes everwhere  and covers evrything 

but better than loosing the roof  i suppose 

getting out is the best advice 

if you keep a bonnet closed it has the possibilityto self extiguish  open it and whoosh  up she goes 

you cant win . its keep safe takes priority 

In the Metalurgy  Lab at work there was a fire from a gas bunsen and some fluid , they fired the extiguisher at it and it blew the offending glass recepticle off the stand off the bench and set the whole place on fire  .....wonderful   

[Josef]

3 hours ago, NonMember said:

Not meaning to detract from anything Josef said but the fuel system is not the highest fire risk under the bonnet. Petrol is more volatile than flammable - contact with the exhaust manifold merely vaporises it. Oil is not that flammable until it's really hot, so it just tends to smoke. The one that will self-ignite on a hot exhaust is brake fluid. So make sure all your plumbing is in good working order.

(And I see Doug just beat me to it)

You’re right, I did forget brake fluid. My thoughts were mostly on quantity of fuel for the fire once it had got going. My abiding memory of the first lab fire I dealt with was the building supervisor telling me afterwards that if I hadn’t got to the 2.5L solvent bottle that had caught (a bit of equipment being switched off near it plus a hot day for plenty of fumes) immediately we would’ve said goodbye to the building. 
 

There were three of us in the lab that day, the undergrad student completely failed to notice the pair of us sprinting round with fire extinguishers…

[Top Banana]

Hello All,

Thank you for your knowledge and experiences above. I am now more aware as to which liquids are flammable, than just petrol.  I decided to go for a Foam based extinghiser based on @Josefexperience  with dry powder and the effort to clean up. I noted @Dick Twitchen comments on safety and learning a how to fight a fire (I worked in Banking and for computer rooms we flooded the space with Halon or Water after cutting off the Power).  Everyone else's  advice was - make a decision to get the hell away, if in doubt.

I purchased the following from Demon Tweaks

https://www.demon-tweeks.com/uk/lifeline-polished-hand-held-fire-extinguisher-1-75-ltr-lif201-101-002/

Although the 2.4 litre version is better value ,it is also huge dimension wise and bulkier. But it is UK rally approved, I am not sure if this is because of the size/volume required by regulations.

I do remember a forum member commenting where to fix the fire extinguisher but cant find it in this thread - General rules are "that it must be secure and within easy reach of the driver and released with one hand and be lifted in one smooth motion".  For the GT6 the only practical place was behind the passenger seat, where I can reach over whilst still sitting in the drivers seat. 

John

 

[PeteH]

Just an observation;. I seem to remember that one piece of advice was to release the latch NOT open the bonnet, but inject apropriate extinguishing materials into the gap?.

Pete

[Pete Lewis]

yes let the air in and whoosh up she goes 

Pete

[Top Banana]

24 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

yes let the air in and whoosh up she goes 

Pete

I am also going to carry a pair of oven gloves 🙂 for handling the hot bonnet.

[dougbgt6]

And when are you planning to do this? Photos please! 😊

Doug

[Badwolf]

Maybe throw in the flying helmet and the wet celery (with apologies to 'Allo, Allo')

[Top Banana]

1 minute ago, dougbgt6 said:

And when are you planning to do this? Photos please! 😊

Doug

Dashcam already position to record all events !

[dougbgt6]

17 minutes ago, Top Banana said:

Dashcam already position to record all events !

Oooo! Dashcam! I got one, but not sure where to put it. I thought over the ashtray and feed the wires through it. But yours is higher up, a better position?

Doug

[Badwolf]

Make sure it's covered on your insurance and don't leave the sun roof open!! It may record the tea leaves but no point if they take it with them!

[Top Banana]

13 minutes ago, dougbgt6 said:

Oooo! Dashcam! I got one, but not sure where to put it. I thought over the ashtray and feed the wires through it. But yours is higher up, a better position?

Doug

Doug,

this is the view with the Dashcam mounted high, it clears the wipers nicely and gives a clear view out. A lady at a classic car rally asked her husband to take a picture of her next to the car and she placed her hand on the bonnet. I was elsewhere at the rally and in the evening I reviewed the pir/motion footage and went back into the garage and cleaned off her hand print. 

 

[Gully]

I carry a small powder extinguisher on the basis that an electrical fire is the most likely culprit with one of our cars and the only type of fire I'm likely to want to tackle - if liquids are involved under the bonnet, it's time to get clear and call the professionals / insurers!

Mine reclines on the floor behind the passenger seat - never moved around to my knowledge.

One point with extinguishers in cars - they should be serviced or replaced annually... I'm sure many buy and forget, then wonder why they don't work at the critical time 10 years later!

Gully 

[PeteH]

A trick with powder extinguisers is to invert it and give it a shake periodically, loosens the powder up, the motion of the vehicle has a tendency to compact it. 2 or 3 years should be OK if the pressure charge is still in the Green sector. I`ve shot a couple off over the years, one well over 20 year old. And it still worked. Yes, even I was surprised!!.😉  "Found" one of the old CTC filled ones, when we cleaned out FIL`s garage after he passed, dated 1939!!. and still at least part full of Carbon Tet;😁. Now I believe a Banned substance?. (Halogenate? Ozone depleter?)

Pete

[Stratton Jimmer]

1 hour ago, PeteH said:

Carbon Tet

Nowadays this compound is referred to as "tetrachloromethane". As you say, it is banned from use in these enlightened days of ozone layer depletion.

[Josef]

On 23/08/2022 at 17:25, Stratton Jimmer said:

Nowadays this compound is referred to as "tetrachloromethane". As you say, it is banned from use in these enlightened days of ozone layer depletion.

It’s also an extremely potent liver (and kidney) toxin, and carcinogen. So not something you want to keep hanging around, and definitely not something you want to try fighting a fire with!

[Badwolf]

I'm sure that I have a can of that somewhere in the garage. It was used for cleaning Banda ink duplicating machines in my o!d office in the 70s. Also used in industry for degreasing cloth in my youff.

[Josef]

Yeah it used to be used as a dry cleaning agent too.