trigolf Posted February 16 Report Share Posted February 16 Recently retired, I finally got down to collating all my bills and paperwork for my Vit. As the car was a one previous owner model, I looked through the PO's bill out of curiosity. I was surprised to see that it had a recon gearbox after only 8 years (1978). I then bought it when it was eleven yrs old and it had the gb+od recon'd in 1991 and then again in 2013! The gbox is getting very whiny again, although still shifts fine. So, I suppose the car will be having a 4th gbox rebuild soon.😟 The car's total mileage is 168,000 so far. Engine was rebuilt. at 133,000. Looking at how long modern car gbox's typically last, it makes you wonder! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted February 16 Report Share Posted February 16 Ah youve hit on our cars weakest point! The gearbox was originally used in the 948 herald (and maybe something before that?) and although uprated in some aspects it was kept during the whole production time. This was mainly because of lack of room in the separate chassis to fit anything stronger and you only have to look at it to see its undersized! Oil level is critical but also its life can be extended by not having overdrive and minimising time spent accelerating in 1, 2 and 3 gears.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
68vitesse Posted February 16 Report Share Posted February 16 If 2L Vitesse, same basic gearbox in early Dolomite 1850, and isn't single rail very similar, same case etc. Regards Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougbgt6 Posted February 16 Report Share Posted February 16 (edited) I bought my GT6 in 1978, 30k miles IIRC. Gearbox failed in 1983 at 50k(?) Got a "recovered" one of uncertain heritage, cheap. It's still running fine now at 70k. I've had to regularly replace the linkage bits, twice or more(?) and they need doing again! The block has had two re-bores and re-grinds. I've also had a broken rear spring and boken vertical link In fact in it's 50 years EVERYTHING that can fail has, sometimes twice. But I'm happy with the gearbox, probably because it has no OD and I'm a poser not a racer! Doug Edited February 16 by dougbgt6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted February 16 Report Share Posted February 16 Yes gearbox is sweet enough and not too heavy although if the main case had been aluminium as well it would have been a featherweight but having to deal with the torque of the long stroke 6 really is pushing it😒 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trigolf Posted February 16 Author Report Share Posted February 16 Hmmm, they are all sounding like Triggers broom nowadays! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlubikey Posted February 16 Report Share Posted February 16 4 hours ago, johny said: The gearbox was originally used in the 948 herald (and maybe something before that?) and although uprated in some aspects it was kept during the whole production time. This was mainly because of lack of room in the separate chassis to fit anything stronger and you only have to look at it to see its undersized! Quite so! The "Small Car" (SC) gearbox was designed at the same time as the SC engine to go in the 1953 Standard 8. The engine at that time was 803cc and made 26hp. Of course the capacity and power soon went up with following models, especially after the re-branding of Standard to Triumph. The early boxes were aluminium and had a sleeve bearing laygear with a scroll in the shaft to circulate oil. Later boxes had laygear bearings and went to cast iron to minimise flex and perhaps other improvements too. But as you say, the overall dimensions limit what you can do and with a 1500 producing nearly 3x and GT6/Vitesse 4x the power, no wonder the boxes don't last. Of course, our cars were only intended to have a 10 year life. But like Victorian engineering, some last much longer with love and attention. Forth Bridge anyone? Cheers, Richard 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Foster Posted February 16 Report Share Posted February 16 7 hours ago, trigolf said: I finally got down to collating all my bills and paperwork for my Vit. dangerous...don't go there and certainly don't add them all up, it'll only bring pain and resentment! 7 hours ago, trigolf said: the car will be having a 4th gbox rebuild soon.😟 Mine is currently on its third. The original non o/d box (started jumping out of third), a complete overdrive box harvested from a scrapyard Vitesse and 'rebuilt' by me and currently a 3 rail box with 1850 internals and a J type o/d built my Mike Papworth. Hopefully that's the last one. I do like the overdrive box and I think it very much part of the character of the car. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
68vitesse Posted February 16 Report Share Posted February 16 3 hours ago, Ian Foster said: currently a 3 rail box with 1850 internals and a J type o/d built my Mike Papworth. Sounds similar to the three rail J type overdrive box I have in my Mk1 2L Vitesse, mine has the fine input shaft as found in the single rail box. Regards Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Foster Posted February 16 Report Share Posted February 16 14 minutes ago, 68vitesse said: mine has the fine input shaft as found in the single rail box. Yep...that's the one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve P Posted February 16 Report Share Posted February 16 (edited) What about the big saloon boxes?, can't be as fragile surely,that's what I have in my Vitesse. But it is Triggers broom in other respects. S Edited February 16 by Steve P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted February 16 Report Share Posted February 16 Yes thats the gearbox Triumph should have fitted but its a lot bigger, especially with OD, and also its ratios are quite different☹️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted February 17 Report Share Posted February 17 big saloon/TR box is way more butch but wont fit in the small chassis cars without a lot of main rail modifications Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteH Posted February 17 Report Share Posted February 17 18 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said: big saloon/TR box is way more butch but wont fit in the small chassis cars without a lot of main rail modifications Pete I have read somewhere about Ford boxes being used? I know from doing rally prep that the early boxes in the Escort were reasonably robust. And one of the easiest to work on. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted February 17 Report Share Posted February 17 Yes the Ford type 9 five speed gearbox from Capris and Sierras was a conversion that was available but they are hard to find now. It was stronger and of course effectively had overdrive but again the ratios available werent great. We have quite an unusual beast with the six cylinder cars in that theres high torque but relatively low weight (the Vitesse was advertised as out accelerating the E type up to 30mph) so if 1st gear isnt going to be useless it requires a close ratio gearbox... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve P Posted February 17 Report Share Posted February 17 (edited) 52 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said: big saloon/TR box is way more butch but wont fit in the small chassis cars without a lot of main rail modifications Sorry to disagree Pete but I did my 2.5 Vitesse and if you don`t want the mechanical speedo with the angle drive it isn`t much of a job at all. Minor modifying of the lip around the inner chassis rails. If you want the speedo with angle drive then yes major work, I just made a small bracket that bolted to the back of the overdrive and points a sensor from Speedy cables in Wales and reads the prop rotations, had an original looking speedo and rev counter made at the same place and it works a treat, easy to calibrate as well. Even used the original non O/D mounting plate. Gearstick comes out in the same place as well so standard gearbox cover fitted fine. As for ratios, 1st is quite short but because of the grunt from the 2.5 engine I could probably pull away in 3rd. 70 MPH is 2800 rpm in O/D 4th and will go up any hill easily. Gets scary above 90mph. It has a 3:27 diff and CV conversion. Steve Edited February 17 by Steve P 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlubikey Posted February 17 Report Share Posted February 17 This is one of those great "what if's". What if Triumph had thought ahead about putting the big six in the Herald right from the beginning? The Vitesse and GT6 wouldn't have had the engine sticking out at the front. The big saloon gearbox would have fitted between the rails. Some other solution for the heater. Lots of head scratching there, but if planned from the start the chassis at least would have been the right shape and it would have all slotted in just snugly. Dave Picton managed to do engine back 6-cylinder Spits with a big saloon box (without overdrive) so I think Steve's right about it being possible with a normal Vitesse - just minor mods like you'd taken a speed hump too fast! Cheers, Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted February 17 Report Share Posted February 17 (edited) I fitted a T9 gearbox last year, after bursting two Triumph boxes in quick succession. But then the engine has got yo 170bhp. See: https://sideways-technologies.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/9855-fitting-the-ford-t9-gearbox/#comment-138717 John Edited February 18 by JohnD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trigolf Posted February 18 Author Report Share Posted February 18 I'd like to keep the original type 3 rail box (uprated+J type) for as long as practical. But we all know that NOS parts are largely made of unobtanium nowadays and most repro stuff is made of chocolate. Some people are already converting to T9 boxes, but I understand that core T9 units are now in short supply due demand and presumably the same problem will arise with NOS parts? I guess all Gbox rebuilders are hoarding their remaining spares. Wouldn't it be nice for someone to stumble across a huge stash of NOS parts in some long forgotten warehouse somewhere? 🤔🙂 Gav Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted February 18 Report Share Posted February 18 46 minutes ago, trigolf said: Wouldn't it be nice for someone to stumble across a huge stash of NOS parts in some long forgotten warehouse somewhere? 🤔🙂 Gav Id rather someone comes up with a really cheap and easy modern conversion like say miraculously Ford Fiesta gearbox internals are found to fit perfectly in our units😁 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteH Posted February 18 Report Share Posted February 18 Likely the biggest issue, being the fact the 90% or more of smaller cars are front wheel drive. I cannot think of a small car with RWD? Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted February 18 Report Share Posted February 18 ha ha yes its just a dream🤪 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted February 19 Report Share Posted February 19 i remember repairing my cousins ford prefect e93a 3 speed box back in the 60s take the top off and look in ......hardly any parts just space and oil and an odd gear or two . Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted February 19 Report Share Posted February 19 Hmmm interesting! If I put in a higher ratio diff wonder if my Vitesse could get away with just a solid shaft instead of a gear cluster? Obviously reduce the top end and probably need regular clutch plate changes but it would stop the whining.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve P Posted February 19 Report Share Posted February 19 Mazda gearboxes has been done, don`t know which model though. S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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