Car SOS

[Adrian]

I bought some parts for the mini from Manners this week and was served by the chap who dealt with the GT6 Car SOS order. Following what I assume to be a removed thread he said they spent thousands as the programme clearly showed - no refurbishment just new parts... and not free. Main point - whilst the on screen persona is annoying the fellas said Tim was a very nice knowledgeable chap, perhaps that is what is demanded of the TV company. I'm sure Cookie could dispel any personality views?  

I've often wondered is restoration keeping a car on the road regardless of what is under the bonnet or being true to the original?

Just interested - (my engine isn't original so numbers do not match but does that make a car any less historic?)

Adrian

[Clive]

I am sure TV is just TV, and rarely a reflection of true character!

Restoration is a can of worms. I guess its base meaning is just that, fixing what is there but sometimes new parts are required. But a car restoration, in its purest sense, should keep as much as possible no matter what. 

However, being practical, our cars have been through the stage (years ago) when they were literally old bangers and almost zero value. So we should be grateful people did swap components from scrap cars to keep others going, otherwise there would be far less survivors. All that means a perfectly original car will fetch a premium, but any Triumph that is still about is historic. Even the last Acclaims (with their Triumph badge) are at least 30+ years old, and many other cars are well over 50 now. That is surely enough? Not that is really matters what people think.

More important is to enjoy owning the cars, be it keeping it original as possible, modifying it, local static shows, thrashing around a track, 2000 miles in a weekend or European road trips. Not forgetting all the friends you make, meeting up for breakfast 50 miles from home and all that sort of malarky.

[KevinR]

Link to the original posting

 

[AidanT]

I couldn't have put it better Clive 

As long as the cars are enjoyed and more to the point used, they become a reminder for everyone how cars used to be

Aidan 

[NonMember]

Hear hear. Must drive Tessa to work today.

[Colin Lindsay]

38 minutes ago, AidanT said:

As long as the cars are enjoyed and more to the point used, they become a reminder for everyone how cars used to be

Aidan 

That last I definitely agree with; how cars USED to be! Consequently modern engines or other replacement bits from modern cars aren't part of the whole ideology. I know it's only my personal view, and sometimes there is no other way to keep a car on the road, or make it useable these days; in which case I'll not put anyone's pride and joy down for that, but I prefer the original setup with all its' faults and shortcomings. 

Car SOS is theatre, no matter the good intention behind all the on-screen faffing about; it's a nice angle on our cars that programmes like Wheeler Dealers lost years ago, so even if they do tell the odd white lie it's all in the cause of entertainment.

[68vitesse]

Used to enjoy Top Gear, used to enjoy Wheeler Dealers never enjoyed Car SOS, suppose someone must as they are still made.

No accounting for taste.

As the old saying, never let truth spoil a good story.

Regards

Paul

[Bordfunker]

I’m with Colin in preferring that cars are kept as original as possible, however doesn’t extend to excluding modifications like electric cooling fans, or alternators and electronic ignition systems which make a car more reliable, and address some of the originals less attractive quirks and foibles.

But then that is just my interpretation of restoration, and I accept that the term covers a myriad of interpretations.

Karl

[Colin Lindsay]

41 minutes ago, Bordfunker said:

however doesn’t extend to excluding modifications like electric cooling fans, or alternators and electronic ignition systems which make a car more reliable, and address some of the originals less attractive quirks and foibles.

Ah, now, here we're talking sensible mods - led light bulbs (not angel eyes), uprated radiator or electric fan (not Honda / VW replacement rad) uprated starter or alternator yes as long as the rest of the engine doesn't accompany them.

There's a certain joke involving a feather or a chicken which I won't go into here (ok Doug???) but there is a certain line that I don't cross; upgrading an existing engine yes, replacing it with an entire unit from a modern...no. It may make the car more reliable, or quieter, or fuel efficient, but to me it's like upgrading a steam engine with a modern diesel. It's missing the point.

Anyway it's all academic. I love Shed and Buried... my kind of guys. Like me, they never seem to make money out of old cars and bits, but that's not what's important!

[Chris A]

Yes it is a very personal definition of what is 'acceptable' when 'restoring' a classic. In my case I have stuck with the dynamo rather than go for an alternator, have LED warning lights in the dials but standard bulbs elsewhere, fitted electronic ignition inside the distributor to retain the look of the period. 'Upgraded' the fan from the metal 4 blade to the 'export' plastic 7 blade one - well the car is now exported to Normandy. Other than that, well I doubt I would do anything. Yes overdrive could be an advantage or spitfire cam, start of the slippery slope.

I saw, somewhere on the net, a Stag that has been fitted with a Peugeot diesel engine, YIKES! OK so quite a few Stags have the Rover V8 fitted for reasons we all know but a modern diesel?

In the end it is each to their own and as long as the cars are kept on the road and enjoyed that is the most important point.

A V12 E type (British plates) went through my village a couple of days ago, what a wonderful burble it was. The thought that someone would put a 4 cylinder diesel in on the grounds that is was more reliable, less pollution and more economical would not pass muster, I hope.

[dougbgt6]

Who of the contributors here have not got any of these?

Polyurethane gearbox tunnel , Mintex brake pads, armoured/flexible clutch master/slave pipe, silicone brake fluid, modified oil filter mounting, spin on/off oil filter conversion, poly bushes, modern adjustable shockers, electronic voltage stabiliser, servo, electronic ignition, modern windscreen glass, the list goes on and on. 

I think the guiding rule is "Would Triumph have incorporated them if they were available back then?"

Colin I don't know the "Feather or a chicken joke" Do tell! 

Doug

[Colin Lindsay]

48 minutes ago, dougbgt6 said:

I think the guiding rule is "Would Triumph have incorporated them if they were available back then?"

Colin I don't know the "Feather or a chicken joke" Do tell! 

Doug

Firstly: Triumph, if about today, would probably be in a merger with Peugeot and would be fitting French engines and all sorts of other modern bits, like sensors, more sensors, more sensors, fuel injection, multi-setting suspension, more sensors and more warning lights too. But they're not, and we're talking about cars built 50 years ago to the standards prevalent then, which some of us like to try to preserve as far as possible for the nostalgia factor, but also with regards to safety on today's roads. I've heard so many owners put our cars down for being noisy, uncomfortable, lacking in performance and polluting that I'm so tempted to ask: why bother to drive one then, if you need to modify it to death or beyond? Just buy an MX5 instead, they're apparently so much more fun, more reliable, more fuel economic, and like our cars you don't need an MOT - many of them that you see at shows aren't three years old yet. (Sorry, couldn't resist it.... )

Secondly: NO! this is a family forum.

 

[NonMember]

1 hour ago, dougbgt6 said:

Who of the contributors here have not got any of these?

Polyurethane gearbox tunnel , Mintex brake pads, armoured/flexible clutch master/slave pipe, silicone brake fluid, modified oil filter mounting, spin on/off oil filter conversion, poly bushes, modern adjustable shockers, electronic voltage stabiliser, servo, electronic ignition, modern windscreen glass, the list goes on and on.

I'm with Colin on the principle of the thing. And of the above list, only the silicone brake fluid (which is a consumable FLUID, not a part of the car) appears on more than one of my Triumphs. Only the spin-on oil filter conversion (fitted by a previous owner) and the electronic stabiliser (because NOBODY sells the original type any more) are fitted to any of them.

[Chris A]

1 hour ago, dougbgt6 said:

Who of the contributors here have not got any of these?

Polyurethane gearbox tunnel , Mintex brake pads, armoured/flexible clutch master/slave pipe, silicone brake fluid, modified oil filter mounting, spin on/off oil filter conversion, poly bushes, modern adjustable shockers, electronic voltage stabiliser, servo, electronic ignition, modern windscreen glass, the list goes on and on. 

Doug

Apart from electronic ignition I don't know what any of the others are  I learnt to drive in a Herald 13/60 in 1970 so this is my reference point for a car, it was modern it had a heater!

[dougbgt6]

Colin, 

I agree with you entirely regarding "around now" But that's irrelevant to what I'm saying. Had these modern developments existed "back then" Triumph would have used them. My car has a servo as standard, previous models didn't. Many think servo's are the Devil's handy work and wouldn't fit one for the very reasons you've expressed. But, Triumph did start fitting them and would have continued.

NM,

There are many who also think silicone fluid the Devils handy work, a consumable or not. They reject it for the same reasons. And are you saying you'd fit a thermal voltage stabiliser if you could find one?

I'm simply saying if these things were around 50 years ago they would be on our cars. 

Doug

[NonMember]

42 minutes ago, dougbgt6 said:

NM,

There are many who also think silicone fluid the Devils handy work, a consumable or not. They reject it for the same reasons.

No, they reject it for completely different reasons. I've never yet met someone who said silicon brake fluid was bad because it's not original. Plenty who think it's compressible or have weird theories about what water does.

I would have fitted a bimetallic voltage stabiliser to the... actually, now I think about it, it was the Toledo, so not even one of my current fleet. But yes, I WOULD have fitted a bimetallic one if it had been available, and it WOULD have worked better than the crap that was on the market, and I would NOT have had to get it replaced (for free, TRGB were quite open about the problems) within a month.

[Colin Lindsay]

1 hour ago, dougbgt6 said:

I'm simply saying if these things were around 50 years ago they would be on our cars. 

Doug

But they weren't, and that's as much the appeal of the cars as it is a drawback. The servo isn't quite the part I'd have used to illustrate my own point, as they were indeed available back then, albeit mostly as an accessory.

By that argument, we could all drive moderns and call them classics, as if they'd been around 50 years ago, they'd now be fifty years old, and they are the cars that would have been made THEN, if they'd had the technology that they have NOW.

If you think of the old broom analogy: it's had five heads and four handles, but it's still the same broom. Go out and replace it with a vacuum cleaner, and try to convince me that it's even a broom at all... that's the heart of the matter.

[Bordfunker]

To me it would be like someone pitching up at an air show with a Supermarine Spitfire fitted with a Lycoming turbo-prop fitted on the basis that the turbo-prop is more efficient.

The Merlin or Griffon engine is one of the defining features of the Spitfire, and fitted with anything else it is just wrong.

Karl

 

[dougbgt6]

 

4 hours ago, Colin Lindsay said:

the servo isn't quite the part I'd have used to illustrate my own point, as they were indeed available back then, albeit mostly as an accessory.

Colin that's the point, an accessory, then a standard fitment. Life goes on.

NM,

There are plenty of people who slag off silicone brake fluid.(Note, it's silicone not silicon). If you want to understand all about it read here:

http://buckeyetriumphs.org/technical/Brakes/Fluid/Fluid.htm

Doug

 

 

 

 

[Clive]

18 hours ago, dougbgt6 said:

Who of the contributors here have not got any of these?

Polyurethane gearbox tunnel , Mintex brake pads, armoured/flexible clutch master/slave pipe, silicone brake fluid, modified oil filter mounting, spin on/off oil filter conversion, poly bushes, modern adjustable shockers, electronic voltage stabiliser, servo, electronic ignition, modern windscreen glass, the list goes on and on. 

I think the guiding rule is "Would Triumph have incorporated them if they were available back then?"

Colin I don't know the "Feather or a chicken joke" Do tell! 

Doug

That is an interesting list.

The g/b tunnel because it is the best available, the original card type are excellent, but not available. The fg copies are not great...

Mintex 1144 pads, because the std modern compounds just do not have the same friction coefficient as the originals, hence the need to use what is now considered an"uprated" pad, but is broadly similar to what the cars were fitted with from the factory

Modified filters, just to make life easier, Bizarrely new cars are being fitted with replaceable elements, I guess for environmental reasons?

Adjustable shocks, as the std type sold today are rubbish, so we need "uprated" ones to be as good as originals

and so it goes on, most of that list is because decent standard quality stuff is not available. As to silicone fluid, it is not for me, neither would I want braided clutch pipe as I don't see the advantage over a copper pipe. But modern laminated glass is safer and better

Some of us take it a bit further. Which is a good thing as it provides interest and something to discuss

 

 

[Casper]

Polyurethane gearbox tunnel , NO

Mintex brake pads, NO

armoured/flexible clutch master/slave pipe, NO

silicone brake fluid,    YES

modified oil filter mounting, NO

spin on/off oil filter conversion,  NO

poly bushes,  SOME

modern adjustable shockers, NO

electronic voltage stabiliser, NO

servo, NO

electronic ignition, NO

modern windscreen glass, YES

 

[Pete Lewis]

you left out CV  drive shaft conversions   , having just changed Gully's hub bearings you dont have to fight the 

darn  rotaflex doughnuts to realign  the  links  ....why were these not original .they were available in the day.

 (and thats not  a doug-nut )

Morning Doug.

Pete

[NonMember]

1 minute ago, Pete Lewis said:

you left out CV  drive shaft conversions    ....why were these not original .they were available in the day.

Cost. And perceived need. CV joints are essential if you want to get your drive round a significant angle, like in a FWD application. In the 1960s they were still expensive and not required for the small angles a GT6 rear shaft needs, which a cheap rubber doughnut could handle. These days, of course, 99% of the market is FWD so CV joints are mass-produced and cheap, which the proper compound Rotoflex is a highly specialist corner case that costs loads...

[dougbgt6]

Clive,

totally agree, use the best thing available.

But, the original cardboard tunnel is excellent?!!  Really?!!

Braided clutch pipe. The original copper clutch pipe has a loop in it because the engine flexes. Copper doesn't like flexing, and even with the loop it goes brittle and breaks. Read Andy Cook's excellent clutch hydraulics refurbishment article in a recent Courier.

I've owned my car a long time and have experienced original and replacement OEM, parts, pads, shockers etc and no, the originals weren't as good as what I have now. To think they were is a pipe dream, yearning for the good old days, which is why we have the cars I suppose, but lets not loose touch with reality.

"Silicone is not for you" What's not to like? It doesn't rot the paint, you don't have to replace it every two years and in our cars it's as good as 3/4/5.1

Doug

[dave.vitesse]

As for the rubber doughnuts the Lotus 21 F1 track car used them on the rear suspension as did the Lotus Elan. However, these were the smaller type used in the Hillman Imp. The early CV joints were viewed with an element of suspicion as to their reliability, as said they were more expensive and their wide angle drive was not required.

A Factory Alternator option was available from Oct 1966 on the GT6/Vitesse. 

 SAH offered oil cooler, electric fan, sevo brakes, Minilite wheels, plus a lot more. Armstrong offered up graded shock absorbers.

I guess like most cars Standard Triumph products had to be built to a price.

It's your car and what you do with it is up to you. However, remember when you come to sell it the types of the mod and way they have been engineered may reduces its sell-ability and some may increase it. 

To my view anything that increase safety and reliability must be a good thing. But that is just a personal view.  

Dave