Parts Quality Initiative update

[TR5tar]

With the launch of the TR SDF website last year, the organisation is striving to keep TR owners aware of its activities and how it can help. Alongside the work to assist with the manufacture of parts that are no longer available, two members of the team work on the Parts Quality Initiative (PQI). For those not aware of the PQI, its aims can be summed up as follows . . . "To help identify major parts related issues through the use of feedback from TR owners. To accumulate, compile and analyse factual information in order to work with suppliers to identify and replace problem components in their ranges." The PQI has now published a list of some of the issues tackled since 2014 . . . https://www.trsdf.uk/news#PQINewsUpdate130121 

[DVD3500]

Is there any such thing for Spitfire/GT6 parts?

[Colin Lindsay]

10 minutes ago, DVD3500 said:

Is there any such thing for Spitfire/GT6 parts?

Yes, forums like this one. We find defective or unsuitable parts, post them on here, others agree and have the same problem, so we tell the supplier, who tells us: "We sell hundreds of those and this is the first complaint."

Sometimes, as in the case of front hub oil seals, the supplier is good enough to withdraw them from sale until better supplies can be found, but mostly the others just continue on.

[RogerH]

9 minutes ago, Colin Lindsay said:

Yes, forums like this one. We find defective or unsuitable parts, post them on here, others agree and have the same problem, so we tell the supplier, who tells us: "We sell hundreds of those and this is the first complaint."

Sometimes, as in the case of front hub oil seals, the supplier is good enough to withdraw them from sale until better supplies can be found, but mostly the others just continue on.

Hi Colin,

generally any information gathered on a forum is not acted upon by the majority of  suppliers.

The Parts Quality Initiative (PQI) mentioned in the first post is more robust as the two personnel that run the PQI have dedicated contacts at the 12 main suppliers for TR parts.

The process is run to set guidelines and things are expected of the supplier.  At the end of the day it is in the interest of the supplier to get it right.

As an example we had an issue with TR4 wiper motor stand-offs. Tiddly little part but the supplier was supplying the wrong size. They didn't accept what the customer said and so when we approached them we showed then an old item, a new item from another supplier and their example.  When they saw with their eyes what was going on they checked their bins and lo and behold they had the wrong parts in the bins.  It took them 5 minutes to sort it out but NOT on the request of the customer.

 

The above PQI isn;t really set up for all the triumph marques but is a good blueprint to work from.

Roger

[Colin Lindsay]

1 hour ago, RogerH said:

Hi Colin,

generally any information gathered on a forum is not acted upon by the majority of  suppliers.

The Parts Quality Initiative (PQI) mentioned in the first post is more robust as the two personnel that run the PQI have dedicated contacts at the 12 main suppliers for TR parts.

The process is run to set guidelines and things are expected of the supplier.  At the end of the day it is in the interest of the supplier to get it right.

As an example we had an issue with TR4 wiper motor stand-offs. Tiddly little part but the supplier was supplying the wrong size. They didn't accept what the customer said and so when we approached them we showed then an old item, a new item from another supplier and their example.  When they saw with their eyes what was going on they checked their bins and lo and behold they had the wrong parts in the bins.  It took them 5 minutes to sort it out but NOT on the request of the customer.

Yes, but at the moment forums are the only such thing for Spitfire and GT6 owners. If someone wants to start one using your excellent example I'd support it fully.

The problem is that we are seen as the 'cheap' end of the market and many times I've been made to feel that I should be glad for any parts whatsoever. That's why there are a number of suppliers who I never deal with, and a number - I'll name Robsport and James Paddock as examples - who have gone the extra mile for us and are definitely worth supporting. 

 

[RogerH]

Hi Colin,

that is the whole point.  The suppliers must understand that if they p*ss their customers off then they will go else where.

 

Always always always complain about a problem and put it on the forum including the supplier response.  Many of them do read these forumnii

From a TR perspective TRShop, TRGB and Moss have been very good in listening.  They can't always come up trumps immediately but work for an answer.

It all takes time - but we are getting there

 

Roger

[Peter Truman]

Info & advice on the forum definitely affects peoples actions I was thinking of buying a Spit & Vit alloy water pump housings from Bastuk now definitely on hold as a response to the other thread re failing wheel studs.

I think the TR register  actions are great and must be commended, I hope the gang of 2 are tutoring others to assist & keep the ball rolling, maybe an interclub or sub groups inclusion would help all Trumpeteers!

The Bastuk failing wheel studs scared the Sh=t out of me.

[Colin Lindsay]

We could start a new term: to be 'Bastuked'... when something you buy lets you down.

[poppyman]

From what i have found on this and other forum's, i have to say i would have to be desperate to buy anything from Rimmers  And haven't done for a number of years now. I know they give refunds, but no explanation.

Tony.

[Greta]

Remember, most suppliers are merely retailers. The true responsibility lies with the buyers of Rimmers, Moss, Fitchetts, Paddocks, Ang, Sc etc to refuse to sell products that are not fit for purpose. 
Sometimes we are our own worst enemy, demanding "cheap" parts - if we shout too loud for this ... this is what we get. And if we shun quality reproduction parts because they are too expensive then the market contracts to only include those that have little interest in ensuring accurate tolerances & durable materials / construction. 

When we can again gather for trade shows - perhaps the club could host a forum / Q&A with the above Co's buyers ( not sales reps ) so Quality Control & Reliability can be discussed. With the number of our cars still on the road, collective action must surely have a chance of bringing some market forces to bare!

[DVD3500]

Having been self employed (and failing at it) I get both sides. It also irks me when I hear manufacturers of any product claim they have to use sweat shops to make things in order "to offer the product at a price the consumer is willing to pay"... and then pay out dividends and management salaries in the thousands....

Now I am under no delusion that for the suppliers we are a minority but we are not insignificant.

Here in Germany if a part is not OEM or a copy it technically cannot even be fitted. Those studs, the stub axles I saw on another post and brake pads I saw somewhere else would all be illegal to even put on your car. (having said that, I doubt the German MOT [TÜV] would even be able to tell....)

My first job ever was to smooth a joint venture for making spiral compressors for refrigeration. It was 1995 and computer aided manufacturing was just kicking off.

When you look at what is possible today it seems it should be realistic to get most parts machined to OEM specs (or better) with the right amount of time and knowledge and still sell it for a price that consumers are "willing" to pay.

[johny]

Trouble is not all owners want the same thing. Ok parts have got to fit properly but some people might want OEM quality as their car is a daily driver while others have a run out to a show once in a while so are happy with items which wont last as long but are cheaper.

Engine bearings are a good example as Im perfectly happy to use the cheap ones available and wouldnt want to pay for tri metal versions that others owners may want. Then, unfortunately, theres not enough of us to ensure sufficient demand for both types to be offered.... 

[Colin Lindsay]

3 hours ago, johny said:

Engine bearings are a good example as Im perfectly happy to use the cheap ones available and wouldnt want to pay for tri metal versions that others owners may want. 

All depends where you buy them from. I don't see how many suppliers can double or even treble prices of the same item that others are selling at a more realistic price then claim 'overheads'. 

I heard a great example of price-psychology once; an airline was talking about seat prices. They had three prices per seat - budget, standard and luxury. People booking tickets refused to pay budget - too common - and thought luxury was a waste of money, so they all paid the slightly higher standard price thinking they were better than the plebs but not as foolish as the wealthy. In reality, it was all the same seat on the same flight and they all cost the airline the same, so they were making money off people's gullibility.

Same with car parts - I've seen posters on here buying parts at quite inflated prices thinking the supplier they buy from has to be trustworthy as they're a big firm, and the parts better than others, simply because they're more expensive. It doesn't work that way. In many cases, it's all the same part.

[johny]

well with engine bearings it would have to be an outright lie to sell the cheapies as tri metal and of course I can understand why theyre more expensive but I just dont mind being with the plebs😁 

[thescrapman]

11 hours ago, DVD3500 said:

Having been self employed (and failing at it) I get both sides. It also irks me when I hear manufacturers of any product claim they have to use sweat shops to make things in order "to offer the product at a price the consumer is willing to pay"... and then pay out dividends and management salaries in the thousands....

Now I am under no delusion that for the suppliers we are a minority but we are not insignificant.

Here in Germany if a part is not OEM or a copy it technically cannot even be fitted. Those studs, the stub axles I saw on another post and brake pads I saw somewhere else would all be illegal to even put on your car. (having said that, I doubt the German MOT [TÜV] would even be able to tell....)

My first job ever was to smooth a joint venture for making spiral compressors for refrigeration. It was 1995 and computer aided manufacturing was just kicking off.

When you look at what is possible today it seems it should be realistic to get most parts machined to OEM specs (or better) with the right amount of time and knowledge and still sell it for a price that consumers are "willing" to pay.

Those Bastuck hubs and studs are German, and made to theOEM TUV requirements I believe.

😞

[DVD3500]

Not necessarily.

Still, if they don't match the originals and are indeed inferior/dangerous you have the right to have things rectified and/or your money back if you are in the EU.

[Badwolf]

The big problem that I have with parts is the 'airline seat' example from Colin. If all the suppliers are buying the same part from the same source but charging out at different prices, how do you know what is good. Is the cheap fleabay oriental knock off the same part as the more expensive one from an approved dealer? The one difference is that with an approved dealer you can send it back and whinge more easily, but if that part causes a fatality....!!!! We just don’t know until it's too late. Lady BW has a thing about good stuff..."This is great, wish I'd bought two", but by the time you find out that it's good, it's too late to buy two. Do you buy two and end up chucking the second one because the first only lasts a short time or falls to pieces? Even the club shop won't know if something is good until they get complaints, or not.

[Chris A]

In a perfect world you would have the choice between cheap & low quality or more expensive and good quality. We would all then be able to make a clear choice.

Unfortunately, as we all know, the world is far from perfect.

[Colin Lindsay]

1 hour ago, Chris A said:

In a perfect world you would have the choice between cheap & low quality or more expensive and good quality. We would all then be able to make a clear choice.

In the Triumph world we have the choice of the same item being sold cheaply, moderately, and flaming expensive. I see so many members on here buying the really expensive version then justifying it by claiming: "You can trust the seller as they're a large organisation" without realising that it's exactly the same item, and if there's a problem the retailer will just fob them off with an identical dodgy replacement or the usual comment of: "No one has ever complained before..."

For a lot of items I look at the manufacturer's part number and search for that. The same nuts and bolts and other common parts are often used on Minis, MGs and Triumphs, but for some reason it's usually the Triumph item that's the most expensive. Retailers claim it's because the Triumph market is a smaller market, and therefore it's not cost effective to keep in stock, but some of these suppliers also supply MG or other marques, so that argument does not hold up. You buy four bolts for, say, a bumper and they cost £1.60 each. You search for the same bolt as a stand-alone item and they cost 15p, but adding the mystical 'Triumph bumper securing bolt' to the name bumps the price up.

I have some excellent retailers that I use all the time, and support them every time I can, as they appear more down to earth and personal than some of the others; some of whom, to be honest, make me feel like a nuisance.

 

 

[RogerH]

1 hour ago, Chris A said:

In a perfect world you would have the choice between cheap & low quality or more expensive and good quality. We would all then be able to make a clear choice.

Unfortunately, as we all know, the world is far from perfect.

Hi Chris,

back in 2015 I was at a meeting of a parts supplier and cheap parts was on the agenda. This well known supplier had cheap, and in my mind poor quality, parts on the shelf.

I was asked what I would do. I said I would throw all the cheap rubbish away and ONLY sell quality items (everybody wants quality and will pay for it - dream on)

A well respected employee (excellent credentials within the trade) said that can't happen as we would go out of business pretty quickly.  People would simply go to Ebay.

The TR series of cars is at the upper end of TRiumph motors and spending money is not the routine. If it is cheap and it works that's good enugh.

So my mission is to help remove items that fail due to bad manufacture (generally too cheap to be anything else)

 

Roger