Still loads being scrapped

[AlanT]

I was at the excellent (local to me)SpitBitz yesterday lunchtime to collect sun visors. Was amazed at how many Spits are still being scrapped, some far better than my just complete resto was at start.
Saw one with good bonnet, boot, and reasonable tub on a W plate.

Tricky isn’t it. The parts are incredibly useful but the restorer in me goes ‘I could fix that!’

[Colin Lindsay]

Sign of the times. I've met a few locals who are amazed that I bother to keep old cars on the road when they can go out and buy an old MX5 for pennies and then allegedly have more comfort and reliability, and, as they claim, the same amount of fun. We're still shrinking down to the nucleus that will keep the required number of our cars on the road, so there'll still be a surplus to be scrapped or misused. 

 

[AlanT]

I’m sure the MX5 is excellent. But it’s nice to have something different to drive as a second car, that Feels more of an all encompassing experience. 
The only better driving cars I’ve had than a Spit have been a Lotus Elan turbo (incredible fun, pre kids budget) and a Boxster (incredibly expensive to maintain an older one if driven a lot)

[Mike Costigan]

A couple of years ago I decided to go down the MX5 route, but a couple of test drives soon put me off! No doubt a hugely competent car with the advantage of modern-day reliability, but just no character or soul - give me an older car which is more of a challenge to drive, so that I get some satisfaction after a day out in it.

[Colin Lindsay]

The problem with them is that they're really just another modern car, ok they're reliable and more comfortable than ours but it's more than just the drive, it's the era, the nostalgia, the whole experience.

[DVD3500]

44 minutes ago, Colin Lindsay said:

The problem with them is that they're really just another modern car, ok they're reliable and more comfortable than ours but it's more than just the drive, it's the era, the nostalgia, the whole experience.

I hear this a lot about the "whole experience" and I am starting to think that is almost as subjective as what the best color is.

The last issue of the German Spitfire club magazine had a long report about their first outing since 2019. 3 of the 5 pages was about all the break downs and DNFs.

While we all know the beauty of these cars is that fact that you CAN still do the work on them I can also understand why many people would wonder why the lack of reliability is .. well.. desirable..?

Don't get me wrong: One of the main reasons I bought my Spitfire(s) was because I could walk out and do 89.3% of the work myself. Roll the car out of the garage, roll it back in.

But for me the main reason is I can make it MY car and make do things the way "I" want to.

I am involved in a project with a classic car club and its goal is to attract young people.

The elders go on and on about how the classic have "character" , "Soul" and that there ain't nothin' like 'em anymore...

Which is all true and for some people may seem attractive (see my previous comments about Morris Dancing...) but kids these days... they do not realize how they have lost control.

Now more than ever they are being told what to say, do and think and in a much subtler way than Orwell or Huxley ever thought.

I may have mentioned my favorite TV show of all time is "The Prisoner". I started watching it about the same time I got my first Spitfire.

At first I just liked the premise and a lot of the allegory went over my head. But look at it now: Constant surveillance because your phone knows EVERYTHING. People wear devices that track their firggin' heartbeat and "health".

In the first episode the main character destroys a radio and before he can completely smash it to pieces a repair man comes along.... Google knew more about the latest flu epidemics than any other organization.

I don't believe in government conspiracies and over regulation. I believe humanity as whole will make personal choice and freedom more difficult. In same ways that is a good thing. We in the West have been bleeding other countries dry for years. There ARE better ways of moving people around and how to power them. There ARE better ways to produce our food both from an environmental and health aspects.

Heck, at the recent launch of the new Lotus "hyper SUV" they talked how it was designed by their "lifestyle" branch... I cringe and applaud at the same time because if it saves Lotus fine (like the Cayenne and Macan saved Porsche) but it says a lot about humanity as well.

I told the Club that the project should about teaching these young people that they have their lives in their hands and to not give in to too much of the outside world. I don't think I got through to them (the elders) though...

For me my Spitfire when I am done will be my magnum opus. And I probably will be the only one to like it like that!

But it was MY choice. MY work. MY sweat and tears (and €€€€€) that went into after years of thought and I will use it to visit people I care about. Probably one of my last truly free decisions before some debilitating disease takes me! 👨‍⚕️

That is MY whole experience.

What's yours?

[Chris A]

1 hour ago, Colin Lindsay said:

but it's more than just the drive, it's the era, the nostalgia, the whole experience.

Yes I agree it's all 5 senses . . .🙄

[AlanT]

And, let’s be honest, Triumph’s just look great. Stationary.

[Colin Lindsay]

31 minutes ago, DVD3500 said:

I hear this a lot about the "whole experience" and I am starting to think that is almost as subjective as what the best color is.

The last issue of the German Spitfire club magazine had a long report about their first outing since 2019. 3 of the 5 pages was about all the break downs and DNFs.

While we all know the beauty of these cars is that fact that you CAN still do the work on them I can also understand why many people would wonder why the lack of reliability is .. well.. desirable..?

That is MY whole experience.

What's yours?

You can argue that about anything; my favourite argument at the moment is about electric car conversions... wonderful, cheap (well they were) green, planet friendly.... but it's a bit like taking an old Grandfather clock and putting an electric motor into it. There's more to it all than just telling the time.

You could argue that Doctors think the entire world consists of sick people; forums like this are where people generally come for help so we get a disproportionate idea that all our cars are unreliable. There are many many Triumphs ticking away every day with no problems, but here we tend to highlight the ones we need help for, or make work for ourselves as we can't leave them alone. My modern passed MOT last Sunday with no work done to it at all, it didn't need an overdrive conversion, or uprated suspension, or new brake pipes, so I think if we left our cars alone they'd go so much better. BUT: there's no fun in that so that's where we get the whole experience!

[Chris A]

My excuse reason for buying one is that in 1970 I leant to drive, and pass my test, in a 13/60. I've never got the hang of the new fangled things.

And just they do look good just standing there

[daverclasper]

On 07/04/2022 at 17:24, Colin Lindsay said:

so I think if we left our cars alone they'd go so much better.

Yes, generally, and need to be used a bit regularly with some basic maintenance. I do like some of the upgrades that Nick and Clive do, that are well executed and are used for purpose

My Triumph is my only car, so I drive it with sympathy, and lives on the road, so big stuff, would be difficult anyway. Also wary of the the issues that folk get (say in, only changing a head gasket), due to non reliable parts at times, etc, though like you say Colin, we only generally hear of the problems encountered

[Mike Costigan]

3 hours ago, DVD3500 said:

 

... The last issue of the German Spitfire club magazine had a long report about their first outing since 2019. 3 of the 5 pages was about all the break downs and DNFs.

While we all know the beauty of these cars is that fact that you CAN still do the work on them I can also understand why many people would wonder why the lack of reliability is .. well.. desirable..? ...

 

I don't think lack of reliability is desirable, but nor do I believe that old cars are unreliable. My two hobby cars are 69  and 91 years old, and I'll hold my hand up and admit I'm not the most able of mechanics, but if you asked me to take either of them out tomorrow on a journey to Lands End or John O'Groats I would have no qualms about the journey and would spend no more than ten minutes checking over the car before leaving. In fact I'm due to go on a run of around 120 miles on Saturday in the oldest one which hasn't turned a wheel since last October, in fact it hasn't even been started in that time, but I have every confidence that it will start promptly, get me there and back with no trouble, and will be ready for another outing without major attention. 

[Unkel Kunkel]

We enjoy these cars; they are a source of fun.Reasons enough.

There is no logical reason for having one, indeed there  is no logical, commonsense reason for any sports car.

- Enjoyment and fun.

Rare and precious things.

 

 

 

 

[Peter Truman]

6 hours ago, DVD3500 said:

But it was MY choice. MY work. MY sweat and tears (and €€€€€) that went into after years of thought and I will use it to visit people I care about. Probably one of my last truly free decisions before some debilitating disease takes me! 👨‍⚕️

You forgot one input BLOOD, I dare not count the number of stitch's my Dr has sewn me up with after cutting and tearing flesh, scared for life maybe I'm just clumsy!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[1969Mk3Spitfire]

We absolutely must preserve and cherish our old bangers. One concern that I have is who is going to take them on after our demise. Very few kids of today seem to have an interest in the motorcar.

My ownership is another case of nostalgia of the 70s, probably the most influential decade of my life.

After an 8 month wait, I finally collected my new Audi diesel earlier this week. When I get into the car, I have to logon as a Guest because I haven’t as yet downloaded the MyAudi phone App. More big brother data harvesting. I almost drove it off the road yesterday because the simply bewildering displays are a huge distraction.

Yesterday, I visited a pal who has owned his US-spec 1957 Jaguar XK150 since he imported it more than 30 years ago. Simply stunning motorcar.

[Mjit]

I wonder how many old men sat about in pubs back in the 60s/70s making the exact same statements about new cars, but in that case referring to our cars.  I mean if your car nostalgia was pre-WW2, maybe even pre-WW1 I'm sure things like all cars having the pedals in the same order would make them 'all the same'.  And as for being robbed of the true driving experience and involvement, well "Never mind this new-fangled synchromesh for me it all went wrong when they took control of the advance off of the steering wheel!".

[Colin Lindsay]

6 hours ago, 1969Mk3Spitfire said:

We absolutely must preserve and cherish our old bangers. One concern that I have is who is going to take them on after our demise. Very few kids of today seem to have an interest in the motorcar.

I agree; I really don't know what the kids of today are interested in. I can't remember the program I watched the other night but the guy there was complaining that the young people aren't interested in his hobby either.

However all is not lost: we seem to be attracting people with spare cash - not many of those about these days admittedly - but it's the ones who can have a car as a hobby, not a necessity, that are still appearing on the scene. Young people can't afford much in the way of cars these days and where before students bought up old Triumphs, these days it's old Renault Clios, Seats and the like. It's only when they hit their thirties or later that things have settled down enough for them to look out for a Classic.

Unless of course you're talking this ridiculous 'modern classic' movement where you buy a new car and it entitles you to entry at Classic Car shows from the start.

[Mike Costigan]

36 minutes ago, Mjit said:

I wonder how many old men sat about in pubs back in the 60s/70s making the exact same statements about new cars, but in that case referring to our cars.  I mean if your car nostalgia was pre-WW2, maybe even pre-WW1 I'm sure things like all cars having the pedals in the same order would make them 'all the same'.  And as for being robbed of the true driving experience and involvement, well "Never mind this new-fangled synchromesh for me it all went wrong when they took control of the advance off of the steering wheel!".

I can assure you some of us still think synchromesh is for wimps! As for automatic advance ignition, you haven't lived until you can master changing gear, adjusting the ignition, and applying the handbrake all whilst negotiating a hairpin bend!

Back in the 1960s we were convinced there would be no interest in preserving cars of the fifties and sixties - not necessarily because we didn't appreciate their qualities, but because we couldn't see the likelihood of being able to maintain supplies of things like curved windscreen glass and hydraulic systems... 

[1969Mk3Spitfire]

44 minutes ago, Mjit said:

I wonder how many old men sat about in pubs back in the 60s/70s making the exact same statements about new cars, but in that case referring to our cars…….

Not sure that I can agree. Cars of the 60s and 70s evolved from cars of the 20s, 30s, 40s etc. Nonetheless, they remained mechanical.

Modern cars are electronic-mechanical hybrids. Almost everything is either monitored or operated electronically. I see this as a huge shift in technology. Currently, the only way to fix a stranded modern car is to wait for recovery. There’s no need to make a call because the car has already cried-out for help.

I doubt that most Triumph owners are apprentice trained, former mechanics. It simply isn’t necessary. There is a huge barrier to entry to keeping an older, modern car on the road. There is neither appeal nor incentive to keeping it on the road.

 

 

 

 

[Badwolf]

We have talked about 3d printing rare spares here at length. For a so-called modern classic there is one huge problem for the future..the micro processor. It does what?  How many legs? Which board? Sorry, there's no call for that one these days!!! Back in the 70s/80s the writing was very much on the wall for electronics repairs. Old board out, new board in....repair the components?....how does that work. You can't even see them, never mind replace them. Most people don't bother to replace the battery on their phone. Just chuck it. At least with real mechanicals you can get a grip on the parts.....and they aren't supposed to bleep, bong, ding or even talk to you although they do sometimes do a whiz bang all gone Pertwee!!! (with apologies to the Navy Lark!)

[Josef]

I bought my Herald when I was 21 in 2007. It’s my first car, and then was my only car (and I immediately put it in to service on some long journeys up and down from the SE to the NE). The cost to buy at the time was comparable to what you might’ve spent on an older modern. Admittedly I also got lucky and found a well maintained one which didn’t require huge expenditure initially. But I bought it cause I’d spent years reading classic car magazines and building car models, and set my sights on a Herald. The majority of people my age or younger just won’t be exposed to classics though, and that’s something we can do something about by driving ours around, taking them to more ‘general public’ facing shows and so on. 

[fungus]

Today’s younger generation just have different lives to when I were a boy (how old does that make me sound 🙂 )

Bought my first (car) Herald from my brother. Rebuilt it and ran it until the big ends went. Swapped the engine with a 1200 and gave it to my cousin. During that time I bought a coupe wreck to restore (still doing that) I went down the new car route with a fiat x1/9 1500 back in the 80’s. If you want the excitement of uncertainty Buy a x1/9, but it was fun to drive. At school we were sort of directed to engineering and fixing things now you just bin it and buy a new one, and off set your foot print by planting a tree. It’s cheaper that way.

There will always be someone that will want to keep old cars. And someone that will work out how to make the electronic part they need. Things move on. Our Nostalgia is not the Nostalgia of the future generations. So lets enjoy it while it lasts.

 

[DVD3500]

Most of my kids' friends have a very different attitude to cars than we do. Look at what they grew up with though... All the blobby, rounded, silver nothing specials rolling around...

The fact that car manufacturers have dedicated branches called "lifestyle cars" speaks volumes.

I grew not far from Detroit so our car culture was a little different most I presume. i.e. you picked on of the holy trinity (Ford, GM, Chrysler) and you stuck to it. We were a GM family.

Keeping things on the road was essential and it was uncommon to sell a car with less then 100,000 miles on it even in Michigan (pronounced MISH- again, Mitch-again 😄 ) with its hard winters and salted roads.

We only ever took our cars to a specialist to have the alignment done. All the rest we did at home. My Dad taught my Mom and sister how to change a tire at the very least and check all the fluids etc.

Cars now are just like smart devices. Throw away, barely reparable and as mentioned above sucking up more and more data about you.

In the project I am hoping to work on (if it gets funded) I want to point out to the youths how having an older car gives you more control over how things look and work.  You don't need to go to garage every time something bings or bongs.

Please you put your blood sweat and tears into it!

Personally in general I have no problems with someone modding a car, be it electric or or V8. I think a car's soul is what the owner has done and does with it less if it is farting dino juice. If that grandfather clock is essentially irreparable I would rather someone put an electric motor in than have it sit broken in a corner.

In fact, I think it is more o a problem when someone sits on something classic and refuses to do anything with it. There was an episode of Car SOS where they were restoring the Sebring Sprite and the guy refused to sell  some of the parts that would have made the car as original as possible (I think it turned out to not be the engine they thought it was after all but still). What is the point in that?

I have a problem with rare or pristine cars getting converted. There was a Gordon Keeble converted on Vintage Voltage recently and that turned my stomach, partially because of the rarity but also because it was not reversible.

As they said in Fahrenheit 451: Books were banned because society demanded it

I think these young wipper snappers are losing the ability to think for themsleves...

[Colin Lindsay]

24 minutes ago, DVD3500 said:

I think these young wipper snappers are losing the ability to think for themsleves...

There's an app for it, somewhere...

[PeteH]

5 hours ago, Colin Lindsay said:

There's an app for it, somewhere...

Yes, and even they suffer "redundancy", Example. I had an App which could monitor the Door Bell Camera. Which means that SWMBO, can speak to folk at the door, and at the very least ask them to wait while she gets there!!. Something which on a "bad" day can take several minutes. The Latest Version of said app, will not run on her I-Pad. (ios9, and not upgradable). The answer is a New(er) device at some expense. Why, oh, why. must the "techies" "fix" what aint broke?. The older working version of the app is NLA.

Pete