Body panel Fit Issues

[Black Cat]

I’ve undertaken a lot of panel replacements on my 1500 Spitfire, front wings, rear wings, sills, floor pans and boot floor as well as a few others. Most of the body panel joints are quite good considering it’s a Triumph. I’ll shortly be having it sprayed but there are a couple of joints which I would like to improve on before it goes off to be sprayed and I’m not quite sure which is the best way to improve them.

The first one is the door bottom joint, it stick out about 10mm along the bottom edge. What I was thinking of doing was to cut an inverted V joint as in the second photo then bend the door skin and weld up the joint. I’m hoping this will solve the problem with the door, but has anybody done this, will it bend OK on the fold line or is there another solution?

The second issue is the gap at the sill on the hinge side of the door, It slightly too large and I would like to close this up a few milometers, how can this be best achieved, with filler, again is there another option.  

I know the body panels wouldn’t have been great when the car was first manufactured but I would like to get it the best I can.

Many thanks.

 

[thescrapman]

First problem is because the sill is the wrong shape, most are like that now apparently,

yiu need to cut along the top and pull it out slightly and fill the gap.

second problem is also because the sill is the wrong shape. They are too short, so you have to cut the back of the top section and move it back slightly.

[chrishawley]

There is a wide range of experience and approaches to getting the best panel fit on Spits/GT6s so if I convey my own experience it's with lots of caveats. So....

My mentor Nigel Hall-Smith (now sadly passed) drilled into me the maxim; 'Don't cut without a diagnosis'. If there is poor fit the remedy should be directed to the cause, not the consequence. The single most useful tool for S/GT6 sills is the 6ft steel rule. Although these sills might look like they are curved in plan they are in fact near straight. The lower lip should be near perfectly straight in plan and elevation views and not at all bowed or banana'd. The line line along the front upper edge of the sill, across the door to fold on rear wing should be near straight all the way along. Assessment in this way may shed light on where the extra 10mm is coming from.

Another pointer might be to carefully assess what is happening at the triangle between the trailing edge of the bonnet , the outer end of the scuttle and the front uppermost corner of the  door. This corner provides about the only reliable datum point from which to work. Getting this 'triangle' right helps to set the height of the door correctly. If the door goes higher  that may diminish the appearance of overhang on the lower edge. Similarly; does the top front corner of the sill line up to form a smooth curve with the wing's wheel arch. If it doesn't line up well then the whole sill is too far forward/backward/short.

I'm assuming you've used the adjustment on the hinges to maximum effect but just to mention that repro hinges can be too thick and restrict the range of adjustment and benefit from skimming to allow the door to sit far enough in on the lower hinge.

I could go on at length but I hope that provides some things to consider.

 

 

 

 

[Black Cat]

The back edge of the front wing lines up exactly in line with the front end of the sill, the bonnet sits flush with the top of the scuttle with about a 2mm gap between the edge of the bonnet and the scuttle and the top of the door is correct with the top of the scuttle and bonnet and the fold line in the door lines up with the top of the sill on the front and the fold line on the rear wing and the doors are flush vertical with the bonnet and rear wing, so all in all pretty good I would say, that is apart from the two point I previously mentioned.

If the new sill panels which are on the market are not a good match these days, and they are the only option open when replacing sills something will need to be adjusted on my car to improve the fit.

I can’t see that cutting the sill and pulling it out at this stage is going to help with everything else lining up so well, the option about cutting the curved part of the sill where it meets the bottom edge of the door and altering the radius may be an option if no other solutions can be found.

That would still leave me with the bottom of door projecting out about 10mm. Does anybody think my previous suggestion might work?

[NonMember]

OK, so the sill lines up with the wheel arch but not with the back of the bonnet. Clearly that's not the door's fault. And given Chris's argument, which actually concurs with scrapman's experience (and mine!) the problem with the door is down to the sill, too. You don't actually seem to disagree with that and yet you persist with a plan to butcher a perfectly good door instead of fixing the dodgy bit. That seems ill-advised to me.

[Black Cat]

The sill appears to lines up with everything, bonnet, front wing and rear wing, all except the bottom of the door. You are no doubt right in that the problem is with the sill but I'm stuck with it now,. If I was to start cutting the sill along it's length and pulling it out it then wont line up with the bonnet and rear wing and that seems like a lot of work which may not turn out  very well. By cutting the door it will only be the door that will need working on.

I know two wrongs don't make a right but they can sometimes help.

I'm still open to suggestions and thanks for the constructive comments.

 

 

  

[NonMember]

Why would fixing the too-narrow tread-plate part of the sill stop it lining up with the bonnet? You won't be touching that part of it, apart from to fill out the too-short-ness which is already making it NOT line up with the bonnet back edge, which you'd fix.

[Colin Lindsay]

The door looks to be slightly low at the sill; can you raise it slightly, maybe rotating it slightly upwards at this point? 

[Black Cat]

If I cut the sill and the rear wing on the underside of the curve, close to the bottom seam where it joins the floor pans and pull it out the 10mm, weld a section in do you think this would work?

[chrishawley]

Hi again. Let me express the deepest empathy; I've been in exactly this sort of situation with both cars I've had and it's most vexatious (but solvable!) .

I get the impression that the evidence converges on the root problem being the geometry of the length of sill under the door. But before jumping in with another opinion could I ask a question? From your first photo it seems that the overhang of the door is greatest just above the the sill to rear wing seam but the tapers off toward the front of the door. Is this correct or just an illusion from the fall of the shadows?

While I'm pondering further I can answer another question more firmly regarding the gap on the hinge side (your second problem). The question being 'How big should this gap be with the door closed?' I measured up on the GT6 and found something I hadn't noticed before: As the door is opened the leading edge moves forward. Took me a while to figure out the geometry of that but it has to be so because the hinge pivot point is behind the plane of the door skin. On the GT6 the sill -rear-end to leading-door-edge gap is just under 3mm with the door open which dictates just over a 6mm gap with the door closed. So that particular gap has to be fairly capacious to allow a respectable clearance + forward movement of the door - lets say something around 6mm (door closed). How big is your gap?

I hope you are getting further forward in solving this.

C

[Black Cat]

Hi Chris,

The door overhang is fairly consistent along the length of the sill, just measured and it’s about 8 mm.

I’m quite happy with the hinge and lock door gaps, they are about 5 mm and you are correct in that the doors do swing in towards the bonnet and the doors miss the bonnet quite nicely.

Where the sill curves around the front bottom edge of the door the gap is slightly larger, (last photo is my first posting) probably about 8-9 mm. I’m thinking I will cut the sill vertically down and around the radius then pull it over the few milometers to match the hinge door gap and weld it back up again.

But still not sure what to do about the door overhang.

I think there is a Suffolk club meet this Tuesday so may canvas some of the members there and see what there opinions are.

[thescrapman]

There is a Suffolk meet Tuesday, I won't be there but Russell and hopefully plenty of the other will be.

take a tape measure and hopefully a couple of Spitfire will turn up.

Think of as if the sill was not pushed far enough into the tooling so the top is too short and the curved bit is not curved enough.

[Unkel Kunkel]

On 31/07/2020 at 11:37, Black Cat said:

If I cut the sill and the rear wing on the underside of the curve, close to the bottom seam where it joins the floor pans and pull it out the 10mm, weld a section in do you think this would work?

I encountered this “lower door edge step  out “ problem on replacing sills and rear wings.I found it extremely frustrating and time consuming, so I have empathy.

My Spitfire had been fitted with replacement sills at some time in the past and  perhaps this may have aggravated the problem, I don’t know.

I naively thought body parts just slotted into place like a new  mechanical bit of of an engine or transmission.

They don’t. It’s different; It’s free-hand ; It involves  wince- making cutting and bashing.

Here is how I tackled and offer it as   just something to consider:

1. keep the door in place with braced  door gap.

Fix the sill edges upper and lower  firmly in place with multiple grips.

2.Cut along the upper aspect of the sill - as in drawing.

3.pull out the sill to line up with the lower edge of the door.and fix it in place with a strip of metal -and more grips.

4.Scribe the “gap”  onto  a flat section of panel  steel.

The gap  ( for mine ) was very little at the bonnet end and around 10mm  at the other end)

5.Next “Fill the Gap“ :

depending on your welding experience  .. butt weld in  or using a joggler  make a stepped inset and  plug weld and then seam weld.

6.Grind and fill.

Outer Rear Wing Fitment :

Of relevance here is fitting the outer rear wing as it can be associated  with sill fitting -and with this problem:

If you attempt to put a whole new rear wing in place and expect it  to line up with the floor, the new sill  and also follow the contour for the inner wheel arch, it won’t.Well mine didn’t!

The answer for me was to cut the nice new wing along the horizontal   crease   that is behind the door and fit  the as two separate panels, after trimming the “overlap” Then carefully butt-welding  them along the “crease” to allow the angle to disguise the join.This also allows matching of the sill curve to the lower part of the rear wing panel with out twisting the panel to fit the wheel arch.
 

I hope this helps.

 

Andrew

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Russell1972]

On 02/08/2020 at 15:54, thescrapman said:

There is a Suffolk meet Tuesday, I won't be there but Russell and hopefully plenty of the other will be.

take a tape measure and hopefully a couple of Spitfire will turn up.

Think of as if the sill was not pushed far enough into the tooling so the top is too short and the curved bit is not curved enough.

Yes, I will be there, definitely this time, no excuses. :-)

Steve, if you want to pop over to my house before the meeting and take some measurements of my MK3 GT6, let me know and I'll PM you my address. The doors line up quite well on that.

I can't bring it to the pub as I've got the front valences off it at the moment.

Russell

[Black Cat]

Thanks Russell,

Can you PM me your address and let me know what time would suit.

Regards

Steve

[Brooky]

The gap at door to sill is the same problem I had when I did my off side, I just welded in a couple of 2mm steel strips to close it to a nice gap. Like most new panels for old cars they need work.

Cutting your door like youve suggested wont work, its  too much movement for the skin to not distort, as suggested its  the sill thats at fault as they are shit.😂

Best suggestion has been given I think with tidy drawings to, I call it Slit to fit, slit and open up the step sill, I do this all the time, its quite common with bodywork, I slit the whole of my rear wing to open the gap to the door as it was too tight.

Note you may have to pull the lower rear wing out slightly to match the sill. Give it the big hammer treatment, show it whose boss and dont get pissed off good luck, its all doable 😎

Ideally you should have the door fitted while fitting the sills then this can help avoid the door sticking out at the lower rear edge, good advice from Chic Doig when I bought all my panels from him.

 

[jmh]

Make sure you have the lock, door cards and trim on before you weld.

Never had that issue with OE sills, but lots of warped doors though!

Then - remember sill will go further down than the floor section; but new floor pans only has about 1/2'' flange

 

[Brooky]

My sills are BMH too

[thescrapman]

The BMH sills have the issue as well now.

Suspect they are using the tooling that was used for the pattern panels in the past rather than their original tooling.

Was it Steelcraft? They are owned by BMH whatever.

[Nick Jones]

The Heritage sills are better, but not perfect.  I've had to slit the rear 6" of the sills and pull them out a bit on both the Spitfire and GT6 we've done recently.  However, I wasn't chasing 10mm - but no more than half that.

The other possible escape I've not yet seen mentioned is the possibility that you may be able to twist the door.  This is definitely a thing for Herald and Vitesse doors, especially when re-skinning - they really need to be twisted into shape on the car after the new skins are fitted, then the skins tacked to the frame to hold the shape.  You may well be able to do the same with Spit ones if they have been re-skinned and not tacked though they don't have the same flexibility as Herald/Vitesse ones.

Nick

[Badwolf]

Already covered twisting doors last year. Tried it with my spit but no joy. I might have another go at some point. I folded up some old blankets and put them between the top of the door and the B post, then pushed in hard in at the bottom, having wound the window up so as not to the bend the glass and shatter it. Made no difference.

[Unkel Kunkel]

Cheap body parts fit badly; expensive ones  fit  less badly.

[daverclasper]

22 hours ago, Badwolf said:

Already covered twisting doors last year.

Hi. Do you mean there is a thread on forum. Is so, do you have a link, as can't find it with a search.

cheers, Dave

[Badwolf]

Not a full thread. I asked some questions on my spitfire restoration thread.

https://forum.tssc.org.uk/topic/2623-the-delorean-style-bonnet-with-similar-hardtop-nose-to-tail-1972-spitfire-mkiv-restoration-upgrades/?page=22

Edited August 7, 2020 by Badwolf
Added web link

[Colin Lindsay]

On 05/08/2020 at 21:49, Badwolf said:

Already covered twisting doors last year. Tried it with my spit but no joy. I might have another go at some point. I folded up some old blankets and put them between the top of the door and the B post, then pushed in hard in at the bottom, having wound the window up so as not to the bend the glass and shatter it. Made no difference.

In many cases it's not the doors, as you'll find out if you fit a replacement door and still have the same problem. GT6 and spitfire doors are quite solid and won't bend or twist. Sills seem to be too short at the rear, with the result that by the time they're welded to the floorpan the door overhangs.

A lot of it about these days: