Charging woes

[jagnut66]

Hi,

For sometime now, since fitting it in fact, my new alternator hasn't been charging the battery and subsequently the car would 'fail to proceed' on occasions, until I had recharged the battery anyway.

I suspected the battery (was old) at first and replaced it. 

Latterly, upon checking the voltage readings, I found that the battery charge reading remained the same, whether the engine was running or not.

Finally, fed up after a breakdown in the pouring rain, with the battery so discharged that she refused to climb the last hill before home and there wasn't even enough charge left in it for the wipers to park, I bought a new replacement alternator.

I fitted it today and checked the voltage readings. 

No joy! Still no charge going into the battery! By now I am pulling (what's left -- hair today, gone tomorrow😉) of my hair out.

Then a friend I met through our shared liking of Morris Minors popped round for a cuppa. 

After chatting about various things over a couple of cups of tea I mentioned my problem just as he was leaving. 

It turns out he had the same problem with the Minor he is rebuilding. He tried various things and was also left pulling his hair out, until that is he mentioned it to other MMOC members........

Also, like me, he has replaced all his dashboard lights with LED bulbs for better illumination.

The key one being the ignition warning light. 

Like me his was staying on after being swapped over.

Like me he didn't consider this in itself to be the cause of the problem.

It turns out that there is a little diode in LED bulbs, so that when they are placed in the ignition circuit it draws power to the bulb, which then fails to go out upon start up and also stops the alternator from charging the battery......

I'm glad he came round today now, I'd never have thought of that on my own......

With the ignition warning bulb swapped back to standard I now have just over 14 Volts going into the battery with the engine running, just as it should be. 

I am posting this up for anyone out there, who like me, would never have suspected that updating the ignition warning light to an LED would lead to such an issue.....

Knowing this, I now suspect there never was an issue with my first alternator, so I will keep it as a spare.

There probably wasn't a problem with the original battery either........

C'est la vie......

Best wishes,

Mike.

NB: Please note that this effects the ignition circuit only, you are perfectly okay to upgrade the rest of your dashboard illumination to LEDs, though I did note that it made the headlamp warning light appear to come on when only dipped beam was selected, so I have reverted to a standard bulb for this one too.

[Pete Lewis]

37 minutes ago, jagnut66 said:

just as it should be.

  a must have you dont need      this has been a subject here from time to time 

what i fail to understand is why the need for a warning light that only comes on occasionally needed any LED bulb  youre not going to save any 

current and it doesnt need better brilliance it seems  bit expensive / misguided 

used to reduce the current is one thing but on  any  bulbs  of less than 5watts youre not going to save the world  the only place worth

a "upgrade" is  the gauge illumination  that can work well 

what was the idea based on ???

Pete

[Wagger]

'LED' is the abbreviation for Light Emitting Diode. They normally conduct in one direction only unless they are multiple units 'Back to back' as in those used in household lighting.

There are some that are red in one polarity, green in the opposite polarity and 'Amber(ish)' when connected to an AC supply.

Don't replace your Indicators with LED's as the flasher unit is a load dependent device that detects blown bulbs.

[jagnut66]

10 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

what was the idea based on ???

Not sure where you are coming from on this Pete, so as a general response I will say that, like others, I have changed my dash illumination to LED bulbs so they would be brighter and therefore more visible at night.

The warning bulb was simply changed along with the rest and nothing more thought about it until now.

I'm sure I'm not the first and won't be the last to do this, I posted this in the hope of helping anyone else who comes up against this issue, as I certainly wouldn't have suspected the warning light bulb on my own.

Best wishes,

Mike.

[jagnut66]

2 minutes ago, Wagger said:

Don't replace your Indicators with LED's as the flasher unit is a load dependent device that detects blown bulbs.

Already replaced, along with the flasher can itself, which is necessary because, as you said, the original is not suitable for working in conjunction with LED bulbs.

The indicators are now much brighter / visible.

I have posted a link to the flasher unit I have used in conjunction with the LED indicator bubs below.

https://www.classiccarleds.co.uk/products/12v-electronic-indicator-flasher-relay-classic-car-with-oe-click-x-l-p-2-3-pin?_pos=1&_sid=5a7cde233&_ss=r

Best wishes,

Mike.

[Chris A]

When I replaced the normal bulbs for LEDs in the instruments the supplier actually said not to replace the ignition one, now I know why.

[dougbgt6]

1 hour ago, Wagger said:

'LED' is the abbreviation for Light Emitting Diode.

No it's not! 

it's Leslie Ernest Douglas 

That's ME! 

I've replaced my dashboard lights with LEDs, much brighter, a warm green glow, every night is Halloween. I haven't replaced the warning lights, for the reasons  Mike has discovered.

I've also LED stop lights, nice and bright but not indicators. You can run into problems with the old flasher unit turning on both sides.  Solution is a flasher with separate indicator warning connection. But I don't see the need, bright brake lights and shiny gauges are all I want. 

Doug

[NonMember]

2 hours ago, jagnut66 said:

It turns out that there is a little diode in LED bulbs, so that when they are placed in the ignition circuit it draws power to the bulb, which then fails to go out upon start up and also stops the alternator from charging the battery......

That statement is, I'm afraid, utter nonsense.

The LED doesn't "contain" a diode, it IS a diode, as others have said. But that's irrelevant. Totally irrelevant. It can only conduct in one direction but it's only ever ASKED to conduct in one direction.

The reason an LED won't work as the charge warning light is entirely to do with the alternator. It NEEDS a decent bit of current from that bulb to kick-start it into life. LEDs are, as has been noted, very low power devices. They don't conduct much current. Specifically, in this case, nowhere near enough current to kick-start the alternator.

[Peter Truman]

LED's also don't work in the switch indicator light on the std Lucas 4 way Emergency Flasher kit, as fitted to our later Triumph Classics, the indicator bulb is negative feed and positive earth, Yep I had a Blondee moment spending ages changing bulbs back and fore before I woke up!

[Wagger]

6 minutes ago, NonMember said:

That statement is, I'm afraid, utter nonsense.

The LED doesn't "contain" a diode, it IS a diode, as others have said. But that's irrelevant. Totally irrelevant. It can only conduct in one direction but it's only ever ASKED to conduct in one direction.

The reason an LED won't work as the charge warning light is entirely to do with the alternator. It NEEDS a decent bit of current from that bulb to kick-start it into life. LEDs are, as has been noted, very low power devices. They don't conduct much current. Specifically, in this case, nowhere near enough current to kick-start the alternator.

Thanks for the clarification Rob. I forgot that car alternators require a moderate current for the rotor winding. My motorcycles had permanent magnet rotors. Far more simple.

[Wagger]

15 hours ago, jagnut66 said:

Already replaced, along with the flasher can itself, which is necessary because, as you said, the original is not suitable for working in conjunction with LED bulbs.

The indicators are now much brighter / visible.

I have posted a link to the flasher unit I have used in conjunction with the LED indicator bubs below.

https://www.classiccarleds.co.uk/products/12v-electronic-indicator-flasher-relay-classic-car-with-oe-click-x-l-p-2-3-pin?_pos=1&_sid=5a7cde233&_ss=r

Best wishes,

Mike.

Ah, but will the system detect a non connected indicator 'Lamp'? These take less current and the connectors oxidise more with lower current. I have had many problems in the house with switches oxidising because thaey are not breaking enough current to burn it off since fitting LED's. That Is why I stick with bulbs on the Vitesse. With clean connections, reflectors, lenses and an alternator they are plenty bright enough. Plus I have about a dozen unused bulbs to use up.

Mean old git.

[jagnut66]

On 20/03/2022 at 20:36, dougbgt6 said:

You can run into problems with the old flasher unit turning on both sides

Which is why I replaced my flasher can with the one in my earlier link.

On 20/03/2022 at 20:56, NonMember said:

That statement is, I'm afraid, utter nonsense.

That was how it was explained to me.

Either way, since reverting to a standard bulb for my ignition warning light I now appear to have a charging alternator, in which case my problem is resolved.

On 20/03/2022 at 20:36, dougbgt6 said:

I've also LED stop lights

I too have replaced my standard stop / tails with much brighter LED versions. 

For which, judging by the above comments, I can expect to be shot at dawn....... 😉 

I still have my sealed beam headlights, as I have found the ones on my Herald to be surprisingly adequate. I also object to the game seemingly being played out by modern car manufacturers, of who can create the most blindingly over bright headlamps, even when they're dipped......

When they eventually fail, I have some Xenon bulbs standing by......

Is that the sound of rifles being loaded?.......

Best wishes,

Mike.

[Colin Lindsay]

9 hours ago, jagnut66 said:

I too have replaced my standard stop / tails with much brighter LED versions. 

For which, judging by the above comments, I can expect to be shot at dawn....... 😉 

If LEDs only work in one direction... and you have LED stoplights... what happens if you're driving in the other direction?

Lend me your blindfold when you're done, Mike.

[Pete Lewis]

there is no shot at dawn   LED are fine in some lighting and very hopeless in others    it just needs a bit of homework before you jump

brighter   yes  less current yes   but the idea can make headaches if the mix and match   just doesnt match 

so flashers must comply with a set on off flash duration , H4/bulbed   headlamps should not be converted  and alternator warning are all best avoided 

so side  tail brake, reverse  ,panel   are easy       flashers  will need a dedicated LED unit and Led headlamps need the whole assy replacing 

pete

[dougbgt6]

11 hours ago, jagnut66 said:

I too have replaced my standard stop / tails with much brighter LED versions. 

For which, judging by the above comments, I can expect to be shot at dawn....... 😉 

Mike,

Not a capital offence, but how do you feel about trunnion lubrication? 

Doug

[RogerH]

12 hours ago, jagnut66 said:

 

I still have my sealed beam headlights, as I have found the ones on my Herald to be surprisingly adequate. I also object to the game seemingly being played out by modern car manufacturers, of who can create the most blindingly over bright headlamps, even when they're dipped......

When they eventually fail, I have some Xenon bulbs standing by......

Is that the sound of rifles being loaded?.......

Best wishes,

Mike.

Hi Mike,

I agree about modern laser beams taking my eyeballs out.

However there is a very big advantage to LED front light - they draw apprx 10% power compared to filament bulbs.

This makes your dynamo happy.

The headlights can be adjusted to NOT blind on coming traffic - but what is the fun in that.

 

Roger

[Colin Lindsay]

31 minutes ago, dougbgt6 said:

Mike,

Not a capital offence, but how do you feel about trunnion lubrication? 

Doug

Don't tell me there's an LED for that, too...

[Pete Lewis]

yes grease is easiy led   

where as oil be seeing you is much better 

Pete

[jagnut66]

9 hours ago, dougbgt6 said:

Not a capital offence, but how do you feel about trunnion lubrication?

I feel it should be regularly checked / refreshed...... sitting on the proverbial fence here I know.......

Mine have been filled with grease, before I bought her, I hasten to add, so for now "grease is the word"....... 

However, oil was recommended by Triumph, so one day I may attempt to clean them out, though I suspect it's not a task ventured into lightly (no pun on the original topic implied or intended...😉)

10 hours ago, Pete Lewis said:

Led headlamps need the whole assy replacing 

I'm still not a fan of LED headlamps / see no need for the excessive levels of (blinding for oncoming traffic) light they create.

So Xenons will be as far as I go, the same as I have done with my Minors. But not until the sealed beams give up the ghost.......

Best wishes,

Mike.

[Colin Lindsay]

2 hours ago, jagnut66 said:

I feel it should be regularly checked / refreshed...... sitting on the proverbial fence here I know.......

Mine have been filled with grease, before I bought her, I hasten to add, so for now "grease is the word"....... 

However, oil was recommended by Triumph, so one day I may attempt to clean them out, though I suspect it's not a task ventured into lightly (no pun on the original topic implied or intended...😉)

I'm still not a fan of LED headlamps / see no need for the excessive levels of (blinding for oncoming traffic) light they create.

So Xenons will be as far as I go, the same as I have done with my Minors. But not until the sealed beams give up the ghost.......

Best wishes,

Mike.

Add oil any time, it will get into the bits where the grease has hardened and protect those, and may even soften the grease so that it flows again, or is pushed out as the oil goes in. You don't need a grease nipple, just an oil can with a flexible spout that will seal into the hole so that the oil goes in, not round.

[Peter Truman]

Re Trunnions has anyone ever used Liquid Grease as an alternative to oil, and if so how does it perform?

[Pete Lewis]

its been talked about quite a lot 

but my own view is an oil bath needs oil  why buy another  lube  to keep on the shelf   so using whats already needed for gearbox and diff  keeps it  simple 

and follows triumph design specification    which has served us well for so many many years 

if you keep em oiled they last for years 

Pete

[Clive]

19 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

its been talked about quite a lot 

but my own view is an oil bath needs oil  why buy another  lube  to keep on the shelf   so using whats already needed for gearbox and diff  keeps it  simple 

and follows triumph design specification    which has served us well for so many many years 

if you keep em oiled they last for years 

Pete

indeed, why experiment?

(OK, I use more modern oils etc in my cars, but that is because I know oil tech has moved on since the 60's especially in terms of longevity and mulitigrade performace etc, but a trunnion is so unstressed, no heat, almost any oil would probably work)

[NonMember]

9 minutes ago, clive said:

but a trunnion is so unstressed, no heat, almost any oil would probably work

Actually they're quite stressed in the sense of having a lot of load on a moving thread, so I'd make sure I use something with an EP additive. So gear oil, not engine oil.

[Peter Truman]

I do both the Vitesse and Spitfire twice a year with brass compatible EP oil, I have also soldered the steel washer at the bottom of the trunnions so as to stop the oil leaking out, 

My liquid grease query was just to overcome the potential leakage issue from the bottom, it was Just a thought!