Originality

[Eric Smith]

Hi guys - I would like to find out opinions on originality and the idea - it’s only original once.

Before I ask you a few questions, I will give you a short case study which I know is true.

Situation: My first car was a 1965 Spitfire which I purchased in 1973, back then she was 8 years old - rust, rot and wear had taken their toll, so after spending £250 to buy her I ended up spending a lot of money on replacement spares and spent about two months of evenings and weekends restoring the cars bodywork before getting the prized MOT.

Over the three years I had the car I fitted more new or replacement parts, some of which were accessory shop spares, some from scrap yards, some new dealership parts and a few bits were off other makes of car.

I was lucky, I worked in a car body shop so I had some skills and had friends who were proper mechanics, they were like having a restorers text book - my questions had replies which included buy this, fit that, take off that etc, the upshot of all of this - the car was no longer “original” in any way.

Sadly after all of the restoration work, the car ended up being scrapped because Triumph Spitfires and reversing Articulated Lorries don’t enjoy much friendship, but - had she survived the car could have lived on as spare parts or had the accident not happened she could be in the garage of one of you guys.

My current classic, a Standard 8 was not as she left the factory when I got her, she had been repaired, upgraded and amended by previous owners before I started messing with her - so if she is anything she is a survivor but in no way original.

Now it’s your turn, here are a few questions to ponder - your thought would be nice but you don’t need to reply, just think about your car, the money spent and how you use it -

Question: What is original - is your car 100% original or should it be: the car has originality?  
Question: How can the “it’s only original once” concept apply or have anything to anything to do with most classic cars if they have lasted 50+ years?
Question: Do you want to drive a potential Museum exhibit or do you want to drive and enjoy a survivor with all quirks?  
Question: If you fit a part or parts to make the car better - is it a Modification or an Upgrade?
Question: Does your car go out in the rain and do you let people sit in it?
Question: Is your classic an investment or a hobby?

Final question: There are restoration companies who caters for the upper end of the classic car market, they often charge in excess of £90 to £100 an hour, where restorations cost tens of thousands to complete - after a car has a nut and bolt restoration and extensive repairs are these cars still original as their owners will say they are?

Eric

 

 

[johny]

I do a personal calculation when replacing parts taking into account practicality (is there a need for improvement), cost (how expensive to keep original) and individuality (dynamos for example are a talking point)....

[Colin Lindsay]

Aha... the old originality vs upgrades vs modernisation debate.

Cars are only original once, so if restored they're no longer original, but can be restored to approximately original spec. You can restore them to original spec, or upgrade as you prefer. It's all down to personal choice.

Personally I like the entire original package, and this is entirely my preference and in some cases at my own risk. Original standard of engine, original standard of gearbox, drivetrain, electrics etc. MX5 engines, Ford gearboxes, yawn. Anyone with an anglegrinder and a welder can do that and in these days of MOT exemption many are not doing it very well either. I'll upgrade electrics to alternator sometimes, and fit better headlamps, but of the same variety - I don't hack huge holes in the bonnet, fit Fiesta headlamps, and claim it's an improvement that Triumph would have done if they could. Kunifer brakepipes, modern brake pads, electronic ignition, uprated suspension bushes, they generally keep the car looking as it was meant to, but no longer original. I won't sacrifice safety for originality, so seatbelts, better wipers etc are a priority. Period accessories such as improved mirrors are a preference with me, as is anything that makes the drive a nicer experience, but I'll try to keep the look as factory as possible. No modern switches or gauges, just the period 1960s look.

Modern seats for example may be more comfortable but they just look like modern seats. I love the challenge of sourcing original parts or like-for-like improvements such as better padding or uprated springs for better support, and if I can't locate a set of period headrests I'd rather do without even if there is an increased risk in a collision, and I take that into consideration just as I drive a car with less stopping power and fewer safety features than a modern. I just like the period machinery, the simple electrics and the whole experience of a 1960s car, with components that can be refurbished and restored by the amateur owner. Otherwise I may as well just drive a modern, as many people do these days at Classic Shows.

[Chris A]

Well, my 13/60 isn't original.

The owners handbook says : Tyres, 5.20 x13.

It has : 155/80R x13

As for the rest . . .

[dougbgt6]

Tyres ain't what they once were, they're better and safer, same for windscreen glass,.I have a better servo than original, better brake pads than original. These cars weren't designed to last 50 years, they were designed to be maikntained by their owners, this is what is dying out and the original concept that must be preserved.

Doug

[johny]

yes tyres tick my first two questions so overiding the third😁 

[Chris A]

1 hour ago, dougbgt6 said:

they were designed to be maikntained by their owners, this is what is dying out and the original concept that must be preserved.

A couple of days ago I changed the oil & filter on my 13/60, took me about 1/2 hour from opening the bonnet to pouring the old oil into a used container and cleaning out the container that catches the old oil.

For the modern ? Half a day. Well that is because I take it to my local village garagist and let him do it and pick it up again later. He has to start by putting the car in the air and remove various plastic covers from under the car to even see where the filter is. Progress

[DanMi]

10 hours ago, Chris A said:

Well, my 13/60 isn't original.

The owners handbook says : Tyres, 5.20 x13.

It has : 155/80R x13

As for the rest . . .

145*13 were available as an option

[DanMi]

A truly original car has only had routine servicing, these are very very rare. Most have been restored but some more to original than others. I expect that any 50 year old car has had bodywork, new panels paint etc, but I do prefer that to have been done as original i.e. not fitting mk4 doors to a mk3 spit. I have seen many cars that claim to be early spitfires which when you look closely are a mix of parts from all marks, which can create a good car but by no means original

[SpitfireGeorge]

The only original parts on mine are the boot lid, bonnet centre panel, rear indicators, reverse lights, one of the rear lights, speedo and tacho. Still a Spit mk3 though.

[dougbgt6]

8 hours ago, DanMi said:

not fitting mk4 doors to a mk3 spit.

My first car was an Austin 7 Ruby, it has 3 wheel arches that weren't from other Austin 7s. I bought it for £5, sold it a month later for £10. The new owner duffed it up and 10 years later sold it for £150. I saw it from time to time after that, it may still be around, I like to think it's brief flirtation with non Austin 7 wheel arches kept it on the road until it was reborn. 

Doug

[68vitesse]

And the is the owner "original", guess not, all bits replaced more then once down the years. Think the quality of the replacement parts have degraded on how I feel some days.

Regards

Paul.

[Eric Smith]

Hi guys - for all of the replies so far - thank you for your time.

The car I am rebuilding was/is intended to be a huge nod towards the 18 year old me (and many like me) who wanted something different, something which we hoped looked cool without being too costly because we did not want to be our dads!

Back then I could not afford a big engined saloon or sports cars, being realistic any engine size over 1200cc was to me unaffordable because fuel, road tax and insurance were a huge black holes into which most of my sub £20 a week pay packet seemed to disappear into.

After reading there are people proposing changes to classic car status, my worry is: we are going to be pushed more and more into a corner by legislation and rules allowing some cars to be kept like listed buildings.

If the “it’s only original once” line of thought became the yardstick by which the rules were applied - would your car pass the inspection?

Personally, I like being a bit different, I don’t want to own a classic car where I am afraid to take it down a country lane because it might get damaged, I want a car which represents the things we did back in the day, not like the day it left the showroom in 19**!

Eric

[Unkel Kunkel]

It’s your vehicle - Do as you  wish and enjoy it !

The notion of keeping something ‘totally  original’ is based on a concept as flawed as that of perpetual motion.

It is wishful thinking for  things -  cars, motorcycles, houses etc - human beings, to remain in pristine condition for ever and ever.

What you see today is not fixed in time.There is a process of degeneration which at best can only  be slowed.This can be achieved, even to the point of it being apparently arrested, however  - but only  by the expenditure of  energy - time and effort.In practical terms this means some type of maintenance/ repair.

That activity can be  be very enjoyable and satisfying, even therapeutic.

There is a point where those very real benefits can be overtaken by the frustration generated by a fruitless quest for perfection and originality.

Have fun.

 

Genuine , interior of totally original 1920fuel tank: 

Edited August 5 by Unkel Kunkel

[Graham C]

My thoughts are if it is a "like for like" change then still original, as cars were built to have parts, panels replaced. Change of things like engine, gearbox and chassis I believe means the car is not original. 

Fitting age related accessories I believe do not affect originality, but are enhancements of the period.

Attempting to have defined rules is quite hard on this subject as you can say that you need the same air in the tyres to be truly original.

Graham

 

[JohnD]

Eric's question and some answers show why, after I bought my first (in fact, second, but after thirty years) Vitesse and started going to Triumph shows, I was so horrified at the antics of the showers (that's show-ers - I'm not abusing the poor sufferers) that I gave up and went racing.    When "Concourse" is decided on how in-line are the screw slots, how golden is your sump oil and whether you have cleaned the exhaust pipe with a tooth brush, I decided that I had enough compulsive disorder in my professional life and  wanted something else in my hobby.

I think the only thing 'original' in SofS is the chassis (and that's mended) and the body shell.  Silverback had a GRP roof and doors - I must get that done!     

Eric, Unkel is right!   It's your car, do it how you wish, to feel safe and cool!

John

[Chris A]

3 hours ago, 68vitesse said:

And the is the owner "original", guess not, all bits replaced more then once down the years. Think the quality of the replacement parts have degraded on how I feel some days.

Regards

Paul.

I'm not original either, there are parts that could do with a restoration or replacement, some bits just don't work as they should and as for leaks . . .

[Bfg]

I agree with Colin Lindsay, insomuch as the language commonly used is an abbreviation. This applies in engineering too. for example, "Original" is most commonly used in place of 'to an original or equivalent production specification'.  That specification of course changed, even monthly, through a model's production. So for example the June 1965 production specification may be different to the sales specification in December 1965. 

In the classic car world, there are two equally common abbreviated uses of the word 'original'.  One being 'the original purchase order / specification of the individual car'.  A chap I was speaking to just yesterday would like an overdrive on his Spitfire, but he's concerned because it didn't leave the factory with it.  That brings to mind  a further 'original' because, dealers were authorised to and so very often fitted accessories, like mirrors and fog lamps,  and as now did corrective / update modifications - before the car was even handed over to the customer, &/or as part of routine servicing, or by recall.  What's original then ? ..the factory spec or the car as it was first handed over, or when came out from the dealer's 30,000 mile service.? 

Many cars were upgraded (factory authorised) by many specialist like SAH.  A TR4 I sought to buy from the US had so been modified, within months of leaving the factory.., with a tuned engine, magnesium wheels, and fibreglass wings.  What about oversea's specifications ? for example a US spec car with different coloured indicators.  Or what about a car that was fitted with an Ashley hardtop, or converted into a Dove ..where no two were exactly the same. 'Original' to when ? to who, to where ?    

The third most obvious abuse of the term 'original' is any vehicle with a specific history.  Not 'original' to factory or model spec. not even 'originally as delivered' to the customer, but perhaps to an approximate point in time when the car raced at LeMans (or wherever).  But was that in its first season, or when it competed another year ?  

Of course there were aspects of each car's design and build, which were a compromise to marketing &/or price, & sometimes simply of iffy engineering practice (chassis with shit welding is just one example) ..even before the first vehicle rolled out of the showroom.  50 years later correcting 'known weaknesses' ..including on the TR's.. chassis failure and suspension mount weaknesses, is considered sensible, as are more moisture repellent paints and injected rust proofing.    

Any car being used will wear components out, perish over the passage  time and are otherwise subject to moisture and damage from use.   Many more aspects of 'original' mass production are simply not reproducible by the after-market and service providers. But when we are discussing car components, consumables, paint, and lubrication many are no longer available... asbestos brake pads for example,  certain oils, cross-ply tyres, and leaded fuel. 

Personally speaking, as a former design engineer in the car industry, I'm not overly fussy 'originality' in any shape or form.  I require the car to be fun, but safe and reliable for road use in 2024.  I'm 6'-5" tall and the 'original' interior / standard design specification is impractical (almost useless) to me.  My car has a 'period' wooden steering wheel. Its chassis was cracked - so I replaced it, rather than scrapping the car. And even then I re-engineered / appended to that for structural continuity. I've replaced the 'original' but useless cooling fan and instead fitted a moulded-plastic one off the TR6.  I also replaced the non-structural cardboard gearbox tunnel cover for a steel one. I've fitted LED lights (aside from the headlamp bulbs) to lessen the electrical loads through the 'original' wiring and switches. And then, I added an oil warning tell-tale light and hazard warnings, and a separate light switch (to do away with the floor mounted main-dip switch).  I've also discarded the wire wheels that were on the car and white-wall embellishers (I don't know if either were original) as i prefer pressed-steel (original Triumph TR4's) ..without hubcaps.  I've also discarded the uncomfortable TR4A seats, and am now using refurbished TR6 seats - with headrest and adjustable backrest. I've removed the wooden dashboard and bumpers, simply because I prefer less clutter in a seat-of-the-pants driving sports car, and I discarded the soft-top in favour of a surrey-top (for interior space, security when parked, and less road noise) ..but even then I made my own two-part lid for it.  And most recently, I've fitted a towing bracket and boot rack for touring.

I wanted a TR4 and am willing to accept most of its character flaws, so the changes I made are (imo) in the spirit of these as a driver's sports car.  Thankfully I'm not bound by any sense of 'preciousness' to factory spec, to how it was delivered in 1967, nor to any previous owner..

BUT..,  i can say that my car is spot-on totally 'original' to how it looked this past weekend 

 

..complete with authentic August-2024 scratch from where someone knocked a post against its front wing !

 

Edited August 5 by Bfg

[Iain T]

Many years ago I restored a car to concourse level and sold it as I was afraid to drive it! Originality is fine but bellows servo and cross-ply tyres on a early E-Type on modern roads. No thanks. For me I ask myself does the modification make the car safer and more reliable then last more comfortable.

Iain

Edited August 5 by Iain T

[Mjit]

I'm firmly in the modification camp (it's a mass produced object not a unique work of art) and will only accept objections to my modifications from people who have; removed the central heating and running water from their pre-1900 house/refitted the lead water pipes in their pre-1969 house/refitted the blue asbestos ceiling tiles and repainted everything with lead paint in their pre-1990 house/etc.

Edited August 5 by Mjit

[Chris A]

Horses for courses.

Most modifications/improvements that I've come across on the web are fine in my book as it is their car. There have been a few that I thought 'why?' In the past a previous owner to my car fitted the Vitesse aluminium bumpers, maybe they were cheaper or easier to find when it was done. I'm happy enough with them.

A modification I would consider to my 13/60 is overdrive. SHOCK HORROR!

Whatever is done to the car the most important thing, other than safety, is that it gets driven. My wife has been getting at me this week as she thinks I haven't been out in it enough. 'Your wish is my command' comes to mind

[SpitfireGeorge]

Originality is like Trigger's brush.

[PeteH]

"Originality" (pedantry) ceases, the second the car leaves the factory or dealership. The tyres wear, oil bocomes contaminated, mechanical items wear, even the battery degrades.

Plum, has had a transplant. Sports a 1300 Spitfire Engine and overdrive gearbox. So definitely no longer "original". However it does make anything above 50,mph a more relaxed drive, and switching between top/o-d top is a usefull feature. It too, now sports polished alloy (Vittesse) fender covers, which in my own view are a definite upgrade. The dynamo, only looks like one having been replaced with a Dynamator? at some point in it`s life. One of the first "Modifications" i carried out was to refurbish the Hood frame and fit a new cover, Is that therefore no longer original?. "Triggers Broom" description, certainly fits here. BUT, it looks "right" and more to the point it drives OK, and brings a big grin. So well done Jeff.👍 RIP.

Pete

[Iain T]

2 hours ago, Chris A said:

In the past a previous owner to my car fitted the Vitesse aluminium bumpers,

No Chris you need originality and sell them to me for my naked Vitesse😁

[Chris A]

1 hour ago, Iain T said:

No Chris you need originality and sell them to me for my naked Vitesse😁

Sorry, not allowed to export them from the EU to the UK, they are classed as being of national interest 😁