Colin Lindsay Posted March 16, 2020 Report Share Posted March 16, 2020 19 minutes ago, JohnD said: Colin points out that Triumph brakes are as good as moderns when it comes to stopping. Maybe not if you want ESC, but a servo won't give you that! And that the thrill of fitting something new to your car is great, because we can! Try doing that to a modern! I'll clarify that slightly before I get things thrown at me - they're perfectly adequate for Triumphs but not quite as good as a modern, which has an unfair advantage of later improved technology and design. We drive much faster these days and expect brakes to compensate much more, and wonder why a Herald that was expected to trundle about all day at forty miles per hour won't stop well at 70. Drum-braked Heralds are positively heart-stopping - I suppose I should be grateful that they stop something... but yes moderns are becoming so boring these days. I still miss the fun of exploring the shelves in long-gone Motor Factors for bolt-on accessories like rear window louvres, spotlights or stereos with only two connections that all fitted the same aftermarket under-dash pod... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougbgt6 Posted March 16, 2020 Report Share Posted March 16, 2020 John, Not many people know about the “You took the servo off? Sorry, no MOT” thing and as Pete Gardner has a late GT6 mk3 I thought he should know. Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteH Posted March 16, 2020 Report Share Posted March 16, 2020 The only safe way to "improve" Braking on any Car is to upgrade the whole system. That can (will) be an expensive exercise, involving modification and requiring Parts never designed for the application. What is under discussion here is the possibility of making the same braking effort, using less input by the driver. Lets face it, not everyone post 50, has the same leg muscles as they did in the teens and twenties. It`s a bit like retrofitting PAS as some have done, It`s more for making the input effort less, and the driving less stressful, adding to the enjoyment of the experience. You just have to adjust your thought processes, to accept that the damn thing will not stop as quick as the latest from "XYZ". and drive accordingly. Pete 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted March 16, 2020 Report Share Posted March 16, 2020 But it can be done. IMHO, Triumph brakes are perfectly adequate for road use. But racing? I have vented front discs, far more important than the Austin Princess four pots, which are really bling, but they are there now. If I were doing it again, I wouldn't bother. AND, 'hotter' brake pads, Mintex 1155s, the 'fast road' option as they will still stop you after you set off and get to the end of your road, unlike the full-race 1166s, which have to be warmed up before they work. At all. The rear discs are incidential, after I fitted MGF rear uprights. Didn't seem worth modding them to take Triumph drums. They aren't so much more effective, as I was expecting to have to rebalance my brakes, front-rear, after getting rid of the drums, and I didn't. So as you might expect, it's all on the fronts. And with the above, I am the last of the late brakers. I can slow for a corner later than anybody I race against. And they never fade. Never. Ever! The problem is speeding up again! And, do I have a servo? Do I Heck! John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave.vitesse Posted March 16, 2020 Report Share Posted March 16, 2020 TR7's brakes even on a standard car are not good. The discs and pads are just to small. The same as an MG Midget. This was pointed out in the development stage and the reputed response was "It's designed for the US where there is a 55 mph speed limit" Dolomite 1850/Sprint have the same problem. Both types of car have Servo's. I agree with PeteH the servo helps the older driver and maybe improves the reaction time as the brakes should act quicker? Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Lindsay Posted March 16, 2020 Report Share Posted March 16, 2020 40 minutes ago, JohnD said: And, do I have a servo? Do I Heck! John But you should see the size of his right thigh....! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteH Posted March 16, 2020 Report Share Posted March 16, 2020 10 minutes ago, Colin Lindsay said: But you should see the size of his right thigh....! Tooooooooo. Much Information!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted March 16, 2020 Report Share Posted March 16, 2020 Too much vehemence from a rather high horse IMO. Late GT6 Mk3 has a servo, on front wheels only. It needs it to maintain the correct balance and any replacement needs to match its boost ratio or that balance will be lost. Early mk 3 has no servo as standard, though some maybe had them as factory (or dealer) options, which would have been active on all four wheels. 99.8% (at least) of current MoT testers have no idea about the above and really don’t care so long as the brakes work properly, with no obvious missing parts and acceptable balance as measured by their rollers. Not that any of these cars have to presented for MoT these days anyway...... The OP was asking about servos on a Spitfire...... ...... and on a Spitfire with its brakes in good condition, fitted with suitable pads (which admittedly most of those sold “for it” are not), has very decent brakes and reasonable pedal pressures. Therefore it is valid to question the motive for the servo. To my mind, if it is possible to bring pedal pressures into the acceptable zone by a simple and relatively cheap pad swap, that has to be the best solution on grounds of cost, simplicity and reliability. If this is tried and found wanting, then the servo option remains open. BTW. My Vitesse brakes are without servo, 5/8”m/c, spaced 16PB calipers and vented discs with M1144 pads. They are effective and pedal pressures are reasonable. Even my wife says so, or rather she doesn’t complain about them which is the same thing. She does moan about the weight of the steering..... My GT6 (early mk 3) brakes are with servo, added by me because I had one going spare and space on the bulkhead. Pedal pressures are a bit lower than the Vitesse, but they have a slightly disconcerting two-tier action as the servo is slightly slow to respond. I prefer the feel of the Vitesse brakes. Nick 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougbgt6 Posted March 16, 2020 Report Share Posted March 16, 2020 Nick, 53 minutes ago, Nick Jones said: Too much vehemence from a rather high horse IMO. Well thanks for that Nick. I think we've already covered what you've got to say. My point is, and I keep repeating it, late GT6 has a servo fitted as standard, removing it is an MOT fail. I am also exasperated with people who respond to servo help questions who keep saying you don’t need a servo. There is an impressive servo thigh section on Pete's "other site" Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NonMember Posted March 16, 2020 Report Share Posted March 16, 2020 1 hour ago, dave.vitesse said: TR7's brakes even on a standard car are not good. The discs and pads are just to small. The same as an MG Midget. I remember discovering that the TR7 front pads are the same ones as a classic Mini, after doing the Round Britain Reliability Run in my Sprint-engined one, still on standard brakes. They worked... enough. In fact, at one point, on realising I was driving rather too fast toward a sharp bend with another TR7 Sprint behind me, I braked as hard as I could... and slowed nicely to a pace where I could get round. The chap behind had better brakes and locked all four wheels. However, after getting home I believe his brakes still worked, whereas one of my pads had overheated to the point that the lining fell off. It didn't have standard brakes for much longer after that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted March 17, 2020 Report Share Posted March 17, 2020 9 hours ago, Nick Jones said: My GT6 (early mk 3) brakes are with servo, added by me because I had one going spare and space on the bulkhead. Pedal pressures are a bit lower than the Vitesse, but they have a slightly disconcerting two-tier action as the servo is slightly slow to respond. I prefer the feel of the Vitesse brakes. Nick Yes, that initial no-servo followed by it actually working does feel odd. You get used to it, but it somehow makes the brakes feel isolated. I prefer the feel of no-servo. I am not brave (or is it stupid?) enough to investigate the causes, but I guess it is the relatively cheap manufacturing process. It is probably the air valve diaphragm to valve "alignment" that is very slightly out, or sticky. And as NM above points out, small brakes will work, but often only briefly. Last year at Spa I had to take the toledo. I was being very cautious about using the brakes, which made for some amusing moments in the bends. Door handles almost scraping the track.... but at least I had the brakes available if I really needed them. Brake fade can be rather scary. (but shouldn't be an issue on a std spitfire) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglefire Posted March 17, 2020 Report Share Posted March 17, 2020 My Spitfire 1500 has standard brakes - I replaced all the disks/drums and pads and shoes and they were a bit pants initially - but after a few miles to bed them in they are fine and stop the car with out a huge amount of effort - I swap between the 4 cars in our house quite regularly and all have different peddle feel - but never do I get into one after the Spit and end up throwing myself through the window having applied Spit pressure in the modern ones 🤣 I have got some Mintex pads to go on the front - but as they work ok I've not yet bothered to change them. I might do soon if I end up being locked down at home The biggest issue I have is the handbrake - it works and holds the car, but has taken a lot of adjustment to get it better! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted March 17, 2020 Report Share Posted March 17, 2020 1 hour ago, Anglefire said: but never do I get into one after the Spit and end up throwing myself through the window having applied Spit pressure in the modern ones 🤣 That reminds me of when I bought a Citroen Xantia (fantastically comfy and economical car). First time I toughed the brakes I did nearly exit via the screen, luckily I was a good boy and had a seatbelt on, but even at the low speed I had some bruising. Vicious brakes on that thing, reckon the French have feeble legs! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave.vitesse Posted March 17, 2020 Report Share Posted March 17, 2020 The later GT6 Mk3 is fitted with wider rear brakes and pads with a larger area which normally means, without a servo, you need more pressure on the pedal than the earlier non-servo model. Maybe that's why a servo was fitted. The servo was an option on the 2 Litre Vitesse. For me the Spit brakes were light and worked well. Hence didn't need a servo. After all it's a light car. Isn't fitting a servo a personnel choice. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpbarrett Posted March 17, 2020 Report Share Posted March 17, 2020 re late GT6 My old MK3 GT6 which had the swing rear axle and the auto adjusting brakes and was if I remember, an early chassis number for the change from rotaflex to swing axle, did NOT have a servo fitted. No signs of fitting holes or pipework. So I don't think all late MK3 had servos fitted..... After I sorted the brakes out (mainly getting the auto adjusting rears working) I did fit a servo as Libby my daughter and me were using it for a RBRR and 10CR and she found the brakes a bit heavy. mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NonMember Posted March 17, 2020 Report Share Posted March 17, 2020 38 minutes ago, clive said: That reminds me of when I bought a Citroen Xantia .... Vicious brakes on that thing, reckon the French have feeble legs! Citroen have long tended to over-boost their brakes. The DS (the original contemporary of our cars, not the modern badge) was criticised in the motoring press of the day for its "brake switch" which rammed the full anchors on at the lightest touch. 32 minutes ago, mpbarrett said: My old MK3 GT6 ... did NOT have a servo fitted. Mine is a late Rotoflex one, so no servo. The brakes are a little heavier than the Vitesse, which in turn is a little heavier than the Spitfire, which is a bit heavier than the Mondeo. All four are reasonable and controllable. Unlike the Citroen loan cars from my local garage, which have ALL their controls set to featherlight and no feel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petegardner_901 Posted March 17, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2020 Wow...! What did I start with my humble request about a servo...! Once again you lot have come up with a load of interesting stuff - this forum is invaluable. When I got the Spitfire a couple of years ago the brakes were terrifying - it had passed an MOT - how I don't know as I very soon stripped the brakes down and found they had replaced the calipers but NOT the pads or discs which were badly worn and uneven. Rear shoes were almost down to the metal. I fitted Mintex 1144s, replaced the discs, shoes and rear brake cylinders. It is now pretty good but I would simply like not to have to push quite so hard when stopping, so as it seems to be a very individual thing I'll go ahead and fit the servo - ON ALL FOUR!! Many thanks to you all...!!!!! Pete 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted March 17, 2020 Report Share Posted March 17, 2020 Pete if you already have 1144 fitted if only lightly used they do need a good frequent bedding in to keep them on form they are made up to be used not tickled ha ! Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petegardner_901 Posted March 17, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2020 "Sorry officer, but Pete told me to stamp on them really hard - you might be able to pull that dent out..." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
68vitesse Posted March 17, 2020 Report Share Posted March 17, 2020 Must try this Mintex 1144 stuff in my Vitesse as all posts say best thing since sliced bread. Regards Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted March 17, 2020 Report Share Posted March 17, 2020 sliced bread is not advised Ha ! heres how to keep them optimum mintex bedding.odt 1) Clean discs with brake cleaner 2) Following Bedding Procedure for M1144 / M1155 / M1166 initial brake test start with 3 – 4 light applications from 30mph down to 0mph. After these, follow the steps below according to Material. M1144: 6 / 7 medium pressure applications 70mph down to 30mph M1155: 8 / 9 medium pressure applications 90mph down to 30mph M1166: 9 / 10 medium applications 90mph down to 30mph When carrying out the bedding process, do not allow the brakes to drag, do not left foot brake. To do so may result in damage to, or failure of the brake system. Leave the brakes to completely cool. For Further information please contact Richard Barton on 0127485403 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted March 17, 2020 Report Share Posted March 17, 2020 If I may, Peter? I'm sure you meant to say that "Leave brakes to cool" is best done by driving normally. The bedding-in is to heat the discs and the pads to the maximum temperature they will see in use, which is lot hotter than normal road driving. Drive about for a while, say twenty minutes, with only normal brake application, before stopping. Else if the car is not moving, the pads will keep their part of the disc hotter for longer, risking warping, and even transfer of brake material to the disc surface, that will give a grabbing sensation. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted March 17, 2020 Report Share Posted March 17, 2020 John i didnt write it it came from mintex i would agree with your idea , Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteH Posted March 17, 2020 Report Share Posted March 17, 2020 Hi The issue of "Warping disc`s" occurs too where the vehicle is stopped immediately after a spell of Serious braking on long inclines. A couple of people with Motorhomes have experienced this and reported it on Forum. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted March 17, 2020 Report Share Posted March 17, 2020 Ah yes, Dolly/Toledo brakes. I have vivid memories of doing a scatter rally in my Sprint auto. My navigator was getting frustrated by my lack of pace which was due to almost total absence of brakes for much of the time due to pad fade (rock hard pedal, no stop). They had about 1.5 decent stops in them per 10 minutes driving which was woefully inadequate for the task. I did try some different pads, which helped a bit, but not as much as a manual conversion which at least gave some engine braking. At the opposite extreme, I had a big moment in a colleagues company BX, all servo and no ABS, the black marks were on the road for years...... Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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