A good day in the life of a classic car owner.

[Pete Lewis]

31 minutes ago, RogerH said:

they are special and need to be hard.

i agree i would like a £ for every head gasket failure where the washers have deformed under the nut and any clamping torque has been lost 

pete

[Peter Truman]

I’m assuming that the studs have a slot in them to clean the threads or stop hydraulic locking in the should be blind hole and it’s that slot that facilitated the leak.

Question what would be the best way of sealing that slot, locktite doesn’t appear effective enough.

[68vitesse]

3 hours ago, Pete Lewis said:

so was there some residue of coolant in the rocker zone

Thats putting it mildly.

Have also in the past bought special washers and nuts for the head studs from main Triumph parts suppliers and as Pete said washers deform and I've had nuts strip hence the mini nuts without washers.

Regards

Paul

[68vitesse]

3 hours ago, Peter Truman said:

I’m assuming that the studs have a slot in them to clean the threads or stop hydraulic locking in the should be blind hole and it’s that slot that facilitated the leak.

Question what would be the best way of sealing that slot, locktite doesn’t appear effective enough.

The ones I removed to cause the problem do not have a slot in them, unlike the headstuds, so will put them back after a good clean with some blue hylomar.

Regards

Paul.

[PeteH]

11 hours ago, Colin Lindsay said:

Interesting points. I was on an American Triumph site recently and they were talking about torque settings, with the general consensus being that they torqued way in excess of the given figure - where the Spitfire / Herald was 42 - 46 they were talking about 60 at least and as high as 66. I don't think I'd go that high and risk stripped threads or sheared studs but it's something to think on. When I remove the head later in the week I'll check for straightness. 

I`d be more concerned with over-stressing the Studs, There is a point at which the tensile strength starts to fail (the elastic limit). Too many years since I "did" material strength. But 66ft/lb is of the order of 30some percent higher than the makers design parameter. The point at which something is going to give?. My personal take is that exceeding the design parameter is trying to cure the wrong issue?. But then having just come back from Texas, I am only too aware the "yanks" have a different take on most things!. (BTW you never call a Texan a Yank, they (some) are still fighting the civil war!)

Nice to see, the cause of the leak is found, "hydraulic" testing usual shows up the defect!!. Somewhat unusual though to have a stud hole with access to the water passage(s)?. The Person who drilled the hole went too deep?. or there is/was a Casting issue?.

Pete

[NonMember]

45 minutes ago, PeteH said:

I`d be more concerned with over-stressing the Studs,

Yes, me too. I had an issue on my Spitfire where I used an out-of-calibration torque wrench. I had fitted brand new studs and MiniSpares nuts. One of the studs stripped, the nut was unharmed.

[Wagger]

I know that I am 'Chipping in' late again, but I would be concerned as to why a hole was drilled into the water chamber. The hole needs to be blocked with the stud coated in something that does not dissolve in cooling fluid or oil.

The studs need to be 'High Tensile'. Many manufacturers upgraded through the time that the engines were produced. Washers need to be hard, but not shatter under compression.

I use a torque wrench that 'Flexes' progressively. The pointer remains fixed. It is very easy to check its accuracy by clamping it in the vice and hanging a weight on it. No sudden 'Clicks' which have cause me to overbalance when using that type and overdoing it.

[Nick Jones]

13 hours ago, 68vitesse said:

Nick Jones called it, connected the compressor to radiator overflow pipe this morning and got a "nice" fountain out of the hole for the front stud.

Interesting….. when you gave the quantity (pint or so) I had pretty much abandoned that idea! Hope that is it - nice easy fix.

Nick

[Nick Jones]

1 hour ago, PeteH said:

Somewhat unusual though to have a stud hole with access to the water passage(s)?. The Person who drilled the hole went too deep?. or there is/was a Casting issue?.

Quite common with these (and the 4 pots), just depends if the cores move in the casting process. Doesn’t matter much as it’s rare to get more than a minor weep when the stud is in place and that can be cured completely with a bit of loctite.

Over torquing isn’t really an option either 3/8” studs as the 42-46 lb/ft is pretty much the max unless specialist fasteners are used. The standard nuts barely hold the book number as it is. The Minispares nuts are pretty good and I’ve not had one fail, but go tighter than book and you’ll have the thread off the stud.

They aren’t really big enough to provide sufficient clamp, which is why the 4 pots and especially the Mk1 6 pots are prone to HGF between cylinders, as triggered this story. The 7/16” used on Mk2 6 pots are a big improvement and makes HGF on them pretty rare.

Nick

[PeteH]

Poor casting quality, was I remember somewhat endemic in the late 50`s-60`s. I was apprentice at a Crane manufacturer, as such we did the "rounds" of all the various departments, doing Q-C on stock, showed up some awful casting issues, the rejection rate was high, some of the castings weighed in at over 2 tonnes, rectification was not an option either. Worse still was getting them on the machines and finding the defects on the last finish cuts!. The waste of time could be killing for the "bonus".!. That`s when I bailed out and went into the Merchant Navy!.

BTW, does anyone do guaranteed High Tensile studs?. I would guess most are "stock" steels, and rolled rather than cut threads too?.

Pete

[Peter Truman]

Confirm 60’s casting quality the very large heavy and consulting engineering Co I worked for had a foundry too and I remember the foreman telling me they would have to recast a very big compressor body due to porosity, my father who was a director came down into the foundry to get me to take me home the foreman who had known dad since the late 20’s showed him the blow holes which weren’t in the bores or stress areas, I remember dad saying try iron filings and sulphuric acid to rust it all together and after extensive testing that’s how the compressor went out for a chemical plant across the other side of the world where I saw it 5 years later in Asia when doing a plant upgrade and it was still working with no issues & probably still is!

[Pete Lewis]

I have a torque to yield meter measures the climb in torque against the rotation of the nut when the parameters exceed whatever it blows a whistle at you to stop 

but i dont have a mk1 head to try it on to get the best possible torque/clamping action 

clever bit of kit rarely used these days 

Pete

[Wagger]

On 27/01/2022 at 07:41, PeteH said:

HI

Without wishing to "teach granny to suck eggs". Are you absolutely sure the head, or even the block (unlikely, But?) are perfectly flat?. Also, re the leakage, have you considered checking the head, particularly, with NDT, micro cracking is hard to detect visually, but should show under dye penetrant.

Reading what has been written, I don`t think improper Torquing is necessarily the issue. Though the state of the Head gasket would suggest a lack of such?. Which would beg the question, is the torque wrench accurate?. "Back in the day" our`s where re-calibrated on a frequent basis. Another question which niggles, Do the flanged washers need a different torque figure?. Using separate washers, there are two "sliding friction faces" the flanged washer has only one.

Generally speaking, the manufacturers tolerances where usually "sufficient" for purpose, so increasing the torque, as some would, to get a tight joint, would be more likely to over-stress the studs/bolts.

I note also, the use of an NOS Stanpart Gasket. Copper, age hardens so could that be contributory?

Pete

Check with the metalurgists. because I know the Duralumin hardens with age. It is 4% copper. Berylium copper also has this property. However, I was led to believe that purer copper merely becomes 'Work hardened'. I have some 'Old' copper pipe that is still quite soft, and some 'New' stuff that is too hard to bend. Foreign, impure hard drawn stuff! My motorcycle head gaskets are still soft after many years hanging after annealing.

[68vitesse]

Got the engine running yesterday and let the hot oil drain overnight, new oil and filter today followed by a ten mile drive. Intend to retorque the head and change oil and filter after about five hundred miles unless advised differently.

The reason for so much water in the oil was that I had cut slots in the thread of the rocker cover bolts to prevent hydraulic lock as I believed they went into blind holes, they do on the other engine, back on studs and acorn nuts.

Regards

Paul

 

[daverclasper]

1 hour ago, 68vitesse said:

change oil and filter after about five hundred miles unless advised differently.

Could you not. remove some oil after running, into a jam jar and see if any water separates?. Also I assume a small amount of water that may be left would evaporate if the engine got nice and hot, for a while?.  Just my own ideas, so I've no idea, as such  

[Clive]

39 minutes ago, daverclasper said:

Could you not. remove some oil after running, into a jam jar and see if any water separates?. Also I assume a small amount of water that may be left would evaporate if the engine got nice and hot, for a while?.  Just my own ideas, so I've no idea, as such  

Yes, the remains of water will boil off (or rather evaporate) as the engine gets hot, so will disappear fairly quickly on a decent drive. after all cars often get some mayo form if used on short journeys, but it then disappears after longer trips.

[Peter Truman]

On 27/01/2022 at 21:27, Peter Truman said:

I’m assuming that the studs have a slot in them to clean the threads or stop hydraulic locking in the should be blind hole and it’s that slot that facilitated the leak.

Question what would be the best way of sealing that slot, locktite doesn’t appear effective enough.

 

6 hours ago, 68vitesse said:

Got the engine running yesterday and let the hot oil drain overnight, new oil and filter today followed by a ten mile drive. Intend to retorque the head and change oil and filter after about five hundred miles unless advised differently.

The reason for so much water in the oil was that I had cut slots in the thread of the rocker cover bolts to prevent hydraulic lock as I believed they went into blind holes, they do on the other engine, back on studs and acorn nuts.

Regards

Paul

 

 I Did ask the question but I was assuming that the long rocker cover bolts/studs were similar to head bolts, a pitfall for the uninitiated, as Pete L says one for the library of useful info!

[Nick Jones]

On 30/01/2022 at 16:14, 68vitesse said:

The reason for so much water in the oil was that I had cut slots in the thread of the rocker cover bolts to prevent hydraulic lock as I believed they went into blind holes,

Ah…… and ha…… the volume had been troubling me 🙂

[68vitesse]

Driven just over 500miles since I put the head back on so this morning removed manifolds rocker gear etc. to retorque the head, out of curiosity I marked some of the nuts. The ones on the long studs moved an appreciable amount those on the short one's hardly at all.

Regards

Paul.

[Pete Lewis]

dont forget to reset /check the rocker tappet ,010" gap  after a retorque  

Pete

[ahebron]

16 hours ago, Pete Lewis said:

dont forget to reset /check the rocker tappet ,010" gap  after a retorque  

Pete

Pete is there an app for that reset or do we press a button in the car.

[Pete Lewis]

its a Triumph  no buttons only  knobs     Ha !

Pete

[daverclasper]

5 hours ago, Pete Lewis said:

only  knobs 

You don't mean us lot? 😃

[Pete Lewis]

there is no answer to that  Ha !

Pete

[Chris A]

56 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

there is no answer to that  Ha !

Pete

There is always one or more answers to a question, but sometimes it's best not to say . .