GT6 Spin on conversion positioning and filter type

[Martin V]

Hi Guys I have a spin on conversion on my car Gt6 Mk3 and last year when I changed the oil after an oil flush I recall the angle of the filter being odd as if you prefill the filter it mostly pours out when fitting. As I had very little chance to drive the car from when i bought it (start of July) I decided to plan a further oil change come spring after some miles are done just to be sure to start the proper year with fresh oil and filter.

The filter was given by the PO and he clearly bought from Rimmer: TJ Filter QFL 0099 with height of 85mm / diameter 76. I think it is quoted as equivalent to GFE 173 and from what I read these have no valve.

Is the angle correct as I read a lot here and else where about correct angle and 45 deg mentioned, assuming that means from the horizontal, then the position is good I think. But then I also read a lot about needing a filter with non return valve in it but it's hard to see which have this.

 

I have a list GFE 173, 180, 166, 348 or FRAM PH 2964 but are any particularly correct to use for this angle of filter positioning?

should I move the position?

 

Thanks as ever.

Martin

Edited January 8 by Martin V
Add pic from phone

[Steve P]

That is a little strange, my Vitesse has the angle at about 8 0 clock, just enough to allow easy changing of the filter without much oil loss.

There is no right or wrong, just opinions from people who use different oil-filters-positions etc. Also anti drain the same.

I use the fram filters and Valvoline VR-1 oil, I find it great for start up and maintaining good pressure when hot. 

Opinions vary and I`m sure someone else will be along to offer theirs. 

Steve

[johny]

From my investigations you can check a filter for a non return valve by looking at the outer holes in its base (the oil goes in through these and comes out in the centre). If these holes are clear theres no valve but if theres a flap inside it has at least one NRV (they can have a second internal one as well). However even with two valves (dont forget each valve causes a small drop in the oil pressure supplied to your engine) the oil will eventually leak past which is why its recommended to try to get your oil filter upside down as much as possible so it stays filled. Yours doesnt look to be in the best position and this can be improved by rotating the adaptor on the block but the downside is that this will bring it closer to the chassis rail making filter changes even more difficult😲

People have tried using shorter filters and this site is very good for checking which filter to use including whether it has NRV or not:

MANN-FILTER Online Catalog Europe

Note: although it does sound like a good idea to keep the filter full of oil many modern cars dont bother with this and some people now believe the whole issue could have been dreamt up as a way to sell spin on adaptors....

[dougbgt6]

I don’t think you can turn the filter any further than the 8pm position on a GT6, fouls the chassis. The short one won’t give you much more of an angle and you’ve lost 20% of the filter

And as Uncle Pete reminds us, the oil ways in the block will drain back no matter what the oil filter does. 

I buy filters from the club shop, buy 4 for the same postage as one. Do they still do that? I’m down to my last one spare.

Doug

[Martin V]

13 minutes ago, dougbgt6 said:

I don’t think you can turn the filter any further than the 8pm position on a GT6, fouls the chassis. The short one won’t give you much more of an angle and you’ve lost 20% of the filter

And as Uncle Pete reminds us, the oil ways in the block will drain back no matter what the oil filter does. 

I buy filters from the club shop, buy 4 for the same postage as one. Do they still do that? I’m down to my last one spare.

Doug

Currently the filter sits at about 10 O'clock (past the horizontal). It is up against the sensor but it was easy enough to remove /replace.

@johny Is the position of the converter determined just by the centre bolt (on my pic) slackened off and rotate the filter position lower then tighten again? Reading your post  "upside down" meaning 6pm would be the ideal or do I misunderstand? Is it worth bringing it downwards before I replace the oil/filter but only as far as being able to still use this kind of length filter (not a short one) as per Doug's comment.

I like the catalogue link provided, nice to see the NRV count in the spec. So it would also be best to use a filter with 1 NRV ? It seems then that the physical size is the next deciding factor as the pressure also varies on these but I wouldn't know which is best for the engine pressure.

Looking at that link, it seems that all BUT the GFE 166 have 1 NRV . Those with NRV includes the TJ Filter currently fitted (Rimmer product).

 

 

[johny]

yes 6 pm would be best and yes centre bolt loosened to rotate the adaptor however this is meant to be installed and then not moved as theres two O rings inside. You should get away with a change of position but make sure the filter isnt trapped as its not something to do repeatedly.

I think a shorter filter such as Mann W77 would work (and this has been done by some owners) as the change in pressure drop is minimal until its starts to block up but these days our cars tend to get oil and filters changes long before their mileage dictates...

[Colin Lindsay]

How the anti-drain works; just a simple flap that seals against the shell:

[johny]

Thanks Colin that shows it perfectly and then there can be a second NRV deep inside along with a spring loaded filter bypass valve in case of blockage.

Im quite tempted by that small Mann W77 filter as its used in the Maserati 2.8L 24v biturbo V6 engine😍

[Martin V]

10 hours ago, johny said:

Thanks Colin that shows it perfectly and then there can be a second NRV deep inside along with a spring loaded filter bypass valve in case of blockage.

Im quite tempted by that small Mann W77 filter as its used in the Maserati 2.8L 24v biturbo V6 engine😍

Will it transform our engines similarly to the same performance Johny 🙂 😉

 

[johny]

doesnt matter as the bragging rights are enough😁

"My Vitesse has been upgraded with Maserati parts!"

[Steve P]

There was a thread on here regarding the owner (Paul?) unable to get any oil pressure after fitting a small Mann filter, for this reason I stuck with Fram after having 2 of the Mann ones on the shelf, If it ain`t broke don`t fix it. free to a good home if anyone wants them.

Steve

[Paul H]

1 minute ago, Steve P said:

There was a thread on here regarding the owner (Paul?) unable to get any oil pressure after fitting a small Mann filter, for this reason I stuck with Fram after having 2 of the Mann ones on the shelf, If it ain`t broke don`t fix it. free to a good home if anyone wants them.

Steve

Yes that was me. As Uncle Pete says if it was good enough in the day why change . So Fram filters are the ones I use and change every 2 years 

Paul 

[johny]

I remember that but now think it was more a problem with the pump than the filter. It should always remain full of oil so its ready primed for the next start but in this case maybe it was emptied possibly by syphon effect when draining the sump....

[Martin V]

Just chatted to Rimmer this morning and found that they do actually have a fitting instruction sheet for the conversion which I'm sure the PO would have bought from them. Attached if anyone wants to look. Clearly PO didn't read it, it seems a trend. Clearly says "with filter straight down" obviously depending on obstructions and filter size but this is not a long filter from TJ @85mm.

I'll buy a service kit for this just in case I find an issue with either of O rings when I go to make the rotation. I think I'll buy more of their TJ filters as they are equivalent to the GFE 173 with a single NRV. Three for £15 inc vat as I'll be ordering anyway for the kit.

Another Question: Are the straight magnetic bolts more likely to seal better than the typical tapered drain plugs? I've only got the magnetic one on the gearbox drain currently but thought to transition over for Engine drain next time I do an oil change and even perhaps on the Differential filler. I thought the tapered were OK but have found perhaps that first time used they may work well, not so much if undone a few times (my gearbox story is long).

 

Thanks guys, always appreciate your comments.

RR1238.pdf

[johny]

Dont think you can use a parallel thread plug as they rely on a face to face seal which our sumps arent set up for. The taper ones must be done up to the correct torque...

[rlubikey]

15 hours ago, johny said:

Im quite tempted by that small Mann W77 filter as its used in the Maserati 2.8L 24v biturbo V6 engine

Yes, I use the W77 filter with my spin-on adaptor. I get oil pressure, but no extra horses.

2 hours ago, Martin V said:

Clearly says "with filter straight down" obviously depending on obstructions

But then it goes and contradicts itself in para 13 by saying it probably won't be straight down. In any case, I think the instructions were written by someone looking at a TR6.

Cheers, Richard

[Gully]

3 hours ago, Martin V said:

Just chatted to Rimmer this morning and found that they do actually have a fitting instruction sheet for the conversion which I'm sure the PO would have bought from them. Attached if anyone wants to look. Clearly PO didn't read it, it seems a trend. Clearly says "with filter straight down" obviously depending on obstructions and filter size but this is not a long filter from TJ @85mm.

I'll buy a service kit for this just in case I find an issue with either of O rings when I go to make the rotation.

 

I suspect you won't be able to rotate the spin on conversion to get a 'filter straight down' position - the chassis rails are in the way on the GT6... Best I managed was an angle around 7-8pm and significant problems changing the spin on filter between the PRV and rails. The Mocal conversion plate is sat on a shelf in the shed an the original filter bowl in place on the car.

Gully

[Martin V]

3 hours ago, johny said:

Dont think you can use a parallel thread plug as they rely on a face to face seal which our sumps arent set up for. The taper ones must be done up to the correct torque...

Thanks Johny.Gearbox seems to be sealed so will leave well alone and just sort out the engine one when i do the change.

[Martin V]

35 minutes ago, Gully said:

I suspect you won't be able to rotate the spin on conversion to get a 'filter straight down' position - the chassis rails are in the way on the GT6... Best I managed was an angle around 7-8pm and significant problems changing the spin on filter between the PRV and rails. The Mocal conversion plate is sat on a shelf in the shed an the original filter bowl in place on the car.

Gully

Yep, I missed the word "nearer" out of my sentence. I was going to aim to match what Doug had said earlier and also the same as you say and shoot for less than 8 O'clock depending on clearances.

Thanks guys. Much appreciated clear now on what to aim for , what to use and what to bung the drain with :-).

 

Edited January 9 by Martin V

[Stratton Jimmer]

Only just picked up this thread. Here's a photo of my Mk3 in which the spin on filter can be seen. It doesn't have a non-return valve and neither does my Sixfire.

[Peter Truman]

53 minutes ago, Gully said:

I suspect you won't be able to rotate the spin on conversion to get a 'filter straight down' position - the chassis rails are in the way on the GT6... Best I managed was an angle around 7-8pm and significant problems changing the spin on filter between the PRV and rails. The Mocal conversion plate is sat on a shelf in the shed an the original filter bowl in place on the car.

Gully

Same here for Vitesse I gave up the on the spin on conversion fitment angles are all wrong and sold the Mocal to a big saloon guy.

My local club here brought the old Triumph type stock of air and oil filters from GUD a wholesaler supplier (Ryco Filters) so I stocked up with 10 original fitment oil paper element filters that keeps me going! Ryco is a good make. GUD we’re going to dump the filters as slow moving stock we had an in to the boss’s Sec so put in a ridiculous  low offer and the deal was sealed aad everyone was happy!

To stop the old cold start bearing rumble I’ve fitted an electric fuel pump with switch so after a lay up I turn the pump off spin the engine for 15 sec then turn pump on let it prime then hit the high torque starter and Vroom NO rumble oil pressure to 95psi immediately.

[Martin V]

18 hours ago, rlubikey said:

Yes, I use the W77 filter with my spin-on adaptor. I get oil pressure, but no extra horses.

But then it goes and contradicts itself in para 13 by saying it probably won't be straight down. In any case, I think the instructions were written by someone looking at a TR6.

Cheers, Richard

Hi Richard, with the Mann W77, I guess you have that nearer 7 O'Clock position - did you have to modify the brake union position? I think the height of 59mm would also work on mine clearing the relief valve cap and coming up short of the brake pipe union but would appreciate any comment from yourself.

I looked at mine this morning and the Relieve Valve Cap obstructs to some degree and then the brake union would come into play which negates the use of any filter heights like the current 85mm one. Looking at the other ones mentioned and using the Mann link above the W77 does seem a good option.

Agree also with the above comment, for the miles I will do and likely to change annual or bi annual I can't see a filter every really getting blocked enough to cause issues.

 

Thanks

 

Edited January 10 by Martin V

[Iain T]

21 hours ago, johny said:

Dont think you can use a parallel thread plug as they rely on a face to face seal which our sumps arent set up for. The taper ones must be done up to the correct torque...

My sump plug was parallel thread and it leaked. I changed to a Gold magnetic taper plug and it also leaks! In fact worse than the parallel. When I next change the oil I'll inspect the sump thread. Is there a thread sealant that works for sumps? 

Permatex high temp thread sealant 59214 seems as though it would work. 

Iain 

Edited January 10 by Iain T

[JohnD]

Teflon tape.

[johny]

Torque is 22lb.ft for a taper plug.

However I see Bastuck sell a parallel magnetic plug with copper washer so maybe that type will work...

Edited January 10 by johny