Broken Brakes

[Dave1360]

Well I've had my first breakdown in the new Vitesse.  The AA man was very helpful but it was a tow home.  The nearside brake caliper had seized and I hoped to nurse it back home but the smoke made me change my mind.  Having stopped, there was liquid grease dripping from the hub and the brake dust seals were a charred mess.  Anyway, I was wondering how far to strip and replace.  I'm obviously going to replace the caliper which is knackered and the hose too as it may have been that collapsing which caused the problem and I have a spare anyway.  If the grease got hot enough to melt and drip then I'm guessing it's safer to replace the bearings too.  But what about the disc (do both as a pair?), felt seal and the pads and shims?

I'd appreciate any advice as I don't want to replace parts unnecessarily but on the other hand I don't want to ignore things that may look ok but still be dangerously overcooked.  At the moment, the car's only just arrived home so I've not had a chance to dismantle and see what's what.

Thanks, Dave

[Colin Lindsay]

Caliper and hose obviously; disc is probably warped, pads glazed and I'd not risk either - you could have the disc checked but they're cheap enough to replace; similarly yes you can work on the pads but it's simpler just to throw them away and buy new. For the price of a bearing I'd do that too, and the felt seal comes with that. I doubt if anything else has been affected, so that should be your total shopping list. You'll be bleeding the fluid anyway after the work. I've found in the past that sometimes a part which you think is fine causes problems, way out of proportion, later on and you'll wish you had replaced and got it over with.

[dougbgt6]

Dave, 

Sad news! I'm Mr Cautious, I had a vertical link break which became obvious was down to poor maintenance by the PO. So replaced both vertical links and trunnions. Since then if one symmetrical component fails I replace both sides. In this case if your going to do one hose, I'd do all four. And both bearings.  New pads, Mintex 11/44s are VERY good. Disks? As Colin says, and not sure you CAN buy just one disk? Calliper? You've got to ask how did this happen and think about the one the other side.

Doug

[Pete Lewis]

you need also to prove the failure , was it a seized caliper or pads or a fluid build up, do check the master cyl push rod has some free float  @foot off

dont mess with half a job , follow the clues , club shop set of discs and std pads  £50

Pete

[SpitFire6]

& you can think about DOT5 if you don't already use.

[chrishawley]

Without doubt the cooked disc should be replaced and discs must always be replaced in pairs and the old pads discarded. Otherwise catastrophically uneven braking can occur.

I've also learnt the hard way that if one caliper seizes, or fails, the other is most likely not that far behind. So at very least the other caliper should be serviced with new seal/pistons as  may be required.

And not to forget the trunion- for an extra few minutes work it would be prudent to have it off and check the bushes and lubrication.

I concur with Pete totally, take the opportunity to do a comprehensive job.

 

Cheers

C

 

 

[Peter Truman]

Don't forget as said earlier also check/replace the brake hoses my Dolly Sprint and a friends GT6 suffered from this in both cases locking the brakes on tight! The GT6 nearly hit a tree!

In both cases we replaced ALL the hoses with the modern stainless steel braided nylon type with external plastic sleeving.

[Dave1360]

Thanks all, some useful advice there as always.  The rear hoses were replaced fairly recently, but I'll replace both fronts if the cooked one has collapsed at all - it's only another £6 or so.  When I get back from work I'll also check through old receipts and see if the other caliper has already been replaced as I seem to remember them being different colours.

As it won't be a quick job, it gives me the opportunity to regrease/adjust the other bearing and check both trunnions whilst it's up on axle stands.

Dave

[Pete Lewis]

and grease the bearing race dont fill the hub cavity thats a waste of grease and traps heat  .  

Pete

[daverclasper]

No personal experience of this, though quite a bit of info on this site regarding new calipers, if that's what your going for. They can be problematic.

Seal kits are available in pairs, though calipers can be miss matched on cars and seals/pistons, threads can be different on the 3 different types of calipers.

Recons are available for a similar price as new and these may be a better bet if they are original , if you don't fancy a strip down.

I think this info is correct, though there are folk with direct experience of this.

Dave

 

[Nick Jones]

My experience is

“avoid the new calipers like the plague”
And
“Bigg Red for seal kits and stainless steel pistons” (they’ll also recon them For you if you prefer)

Discs - I’d view the cooked one with suspicion but it might be ok. Replace as pairs. If you are in the south west I have a pair of used-but-will-go-again you can have.

Wheel bearings - wash out thoroughly and inspect. If they weren’t  knackered before the brake incident they will most likely be good to go again. Regrease and refit.  Don’t fill the hub with grease - I have no idea why people think it’s a good idea.

Don’t buy £6 no-name wheel bearings......

Nick

[Dave1360]

Thanks again.  These are Type 12 calipers as it's a 1600 and I'm happy to go for the recon Girlings as the price doesn't differ much as you say, although I've not heard of any problems with the 12s compared to the 16s.  Not too keen on just replacing the pistons and seals due to the melted mess that used to be seals - if they've gone then I'd be dubious about the seal between the caliper halves too.

I checked back through the history last night and both the calipers and front hoses were replaced 9 years ago and the back hoses only two years ago, so I think both the fronts are worth a change.  The bearings are likely to be original as the car's only done 20k miles from new, so I'm happy to splash out on a good high quality replacement if needed rather than a dodgy eBay special.

Nick - your offer of discs is really appreciated, but it'd probably cost more in petrol to collect them than to get a new pair delivered.

Once the sun comes out this morning, I'll start dismantling and see how I get on.

Dave

[thescrapman]

Type 12? Change to type 14 as cheaper and better.

Direct fit I beleive.

[Pete Lewis]

I was just thinking the same , we know 16s need a different carrier but we dont seem to have discussed 12s to 14s  and that does make supply and material options far better idea 

like 1144 pads ,to get some braking , my experience with a rorty 1600 on 12s was ye hah !!    and we changed to 16s ,  

just dont go for any green stuff rubbish 

do  keep an eye on club shop for pricing 

Pete

[Colin Lindsay]

1 hour ago, Dave1360 said:

The bearings are likely to be original as the car's only done 20k miles from new, so I'm happy to splash out on a good high quality replacement if needed rather than a dodgy eBay special.

Good thinking. You can get some really terrible bearings out there, and you'll end up, as I did, throwing them away for better versions. Ten minutes changes bearings and you know it's been done, so one less thing to worry about later on.

 

[68vitesse]

33 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

 

just dont go for any green stuff rubbish

Why the dislike of green stuff?, just a question, have them in my Mk1 2L Vitesse they where bought from the club shop some years ago. Never been a problem even told on MOT's they where surprised how good the brakes are, don't know if it's imagination but seem to generate more dust.

Will try the mintex ones at next pad change.

Regards

Paul

[johny]

I found green stuff no better than standard and I think it's because our brakes weren't designed for modern pad materials. On the original asbestos ones braking is much better.

[daverclasper]

I had green ones and a lot of dust. Standard now, and I can't tell the difference (except front wheels are a lot cleaner).

[Dave1360]

I've read discussions, possibly on the old CT forum, relating to Type 12 to 14 conversion.  The gist of it seemed to be that the hub needs its edge grinding down slightly for the T14s to fit, although I'd assume it would be easier to grind the body of the caliper if it's only a mm or so.  Not yet convinced to go to the effort currently although that or even a T16 upgrade may be on the cards one day.

I've stripped it down and it wasn't pretty.  The track rod end boot had melted, the disc looked like it was peeling slightly in places and there was no rubber left around the pistons.  The bearing races were also marked so they're not going back in either.  On the positive side, the trunnion is in great condition and now totally free of a previous owner's grease.

Dave

[mark powell]

now totally free of a previous owner's grease.

Brilliant!

[Pete Lewis]

here is the later hub with machined chamfer, easy done with a angle grinder .

green stuff i found easy to clean the wheels but stopping power was ...well there wasnt any ,  if you remove green and fit 1144 bedded in properly you will break your nose on the screen in comparison.

if the previous had greased the trunions he may have reduced front hub end float to preload and thats cotributed to the lack of pad pull back and more

you must have end float  a light nip and back the castle nut one or two flats  the spec is 0.002 to 0,008" at ).008" you get a lot of wheel rock ...its too much

at 0.00 or less  you stand a good chance of welding the outer brg, to the stub axle very quickly ,  

Pete

 

 

[Colin Lindsay]

2 hours ago, Pete Lewis said:

here is the later hub with machined chamfer, easy done with a angle grinder .

Easy done with an angle grinder, if you don't mind vibrations when up to speed; properly done with a lathe, or else buy later hubs.

[Pete Lewis]

yes  a lathe makes it more professional 

ive done a couple it only needed a wisp taken off   some clear ok some do want to foul , the older  hubs do have a rough cast chamfer it just needs a light molesting  

Pete

 

[Dave1360]

When you say later hubs, are these the ones fitted to the 2L models with Type 16 brakes?  I tried and failed to go down this route with the previous Vitesse, except that I picked up a pair of cheap 13/60 hubs from eBay which I then realised used different stub axles and bearings at which point I gave up.

[Pete Lewis]

the hubs on a 1600 are probably already skimmed , you can fit type 16s but need a hard to find caliper carrier as the bolt hole centres are different so  have to source second hand 2ltr

we fitted type 16s to my Vit6 and gt6 discs to match the performance ,and did not need to skim the hubs  the 12s were pretty useless whatever pads used  ( 1144 were not about back then ) 

the mintex do give a fabulous improvement over   standard offerings .but seem only available in 14 or 16 types  not 12s 

Pete