Clutch lever issues and mystery overdrive

[Papa Smurf]

Hi all, I’m one week into owning a 1980 Spitfire 1500 (first Triumph) and am trying to resolve a clutch issue that the car had when I bought it.  I’ve discovered that the rock hard clutch pedal is not due to a stuck slave cylinder (the most popular internet diagnosis) but due to the fact the pushrod pin has failed and the pushrod has burst through the back of the operating lever (see pic).  Is this a common phenomenon?  Also the pivot pin seems to have been replaced by a long bolt that is a very loose fit and rattles about.

Therefore, I’m resigned to pulling the transmission out to replace and refix the lever assembly.  (note: from the paperwork I got it looks like somebody tried to make a heath robinson attempt to bodge a new pushrod pin working through the slave cylinder port in the bell housing, but that seems to have failed now and is presumably rattling around in the bottom of the bellhousing somewhere)

But the reason for this post is that in striping down the interior to get to the clutch I have discovered that the overdrive has been disconnected.  It looks like one of the connector lugs to the gear knob mounted switch has snapped off.  The guy I bought it off said that he did not use overdrive but the previous owner to him said it did work.

Obviously I don’t want to go to the trouble of pulling transmission, fix the clutch issue, put it all back and only then discover that the overdrive is kaput.

Is there a way that I can test the overdrive status with the transmission out of the car? Or somewhere I could take the entire transmission to get the overdrive checked?

[Clive]

Yes, the solenoid just needs 12V across it to operate, so for testing I would jack teh rear u VERY securely, start the car up in neutral, let it warm uo. Then switch off, start in 2nd gear, and rev to say 2000rpm. Apply 12v across the solenoid, and if it is working, you will see either the speed go up or the revs go down.

Of course, you can test the solenoid with engine off, as you put 12V across it and off again, you will hear a soft click. 

[Papa Smurf]

Thanks Clive but I can’t get in and out of gear until I fix the clutch lever.  I suppose I could jam something in the clutch slave port to see if I can manually push the clutch in but that seems a bit precarious…

[Nick Jones]

Should start in gear easily enough…..

Nick

[johny]

I had a the pivot point break through a clutch operating arm many moons ago on a 6 cylinder which is a different design but the failure mode and result was very similar to yours.

To test the OD running I think youve got to get into 3rd or 4th gear as this is when its solenoid electrical interlock is made. Difficult to test the complete OD operation with the gearbox off the car as the output shaft has to be turning sufficiently fast to drive its internal hydraulic oil pump...

 

[68vitesse]

If applying 12v direct to the solenoid it should operate which ever forward gear you use, DO NOT USE REVERSE, I would also remove the rear wheels to reduce the rotating mass.

But as said not an ideal, or particularly safe, way to test an overdrive.

Regards

Paul.

[Papa Smurf]

Thanks all, I’m not sure about the stationary test which brings back memories of Ferris Buellers Day Off..  will have a think…

[rogerguzzi]

Hello Papa Smurf!

                              I have tested mine on the bench but you do need an electric motor and a pressure gauge(will sort out photos)

That overdrive is not a Triumph fitment as is a 28% (I have the same fitted to Spitty) they were fitted to Reliant Scimitars and probably big Fords etc

It does make it nice for motorway work as 70mph is a gnats over 3000rpm but not much good under about 40mph.

Roger

[Clive]

9 hours ago, Papa Smurf said:

Thanks Clive but I can’t get in and out of gear until I fix the clutch lever.  I suppose I could jam something in the clutch slave port to see if I can manually push the clutch in but that seems a bit precarious…

As Nick say, it will start in gear, but worth warming up first to make life easier. Less faffing with the wheels spinning....

Use of proper axle stands, plus take the wheels off, maybe along with the spare, and stack them under the car as belt and braces. I do that, currently got a car 2ft off the ground, on largish  axle stands, but a stack of tyres at each end, just in case. Convenient storage too.

Jony is correct about inhibitor switches, which is why I said apply 12v diect to the solenoid, most OD issues are switches/wiring (or low oil level), so best to take them out of the equation. Just thinking, the car will need to be doing a fair speed to get the oil pump fast enough. Probably 20+mph.

Of course, the safer way is to disconnect the propshaft from the box, which having thought about it, you will be doing anyway. So do that. (but again, do not run in reverse with the OD engaged, it will cause £££££  damage)

If you need the OD, or even the box, looking at, I have a local chappie in Sussex who is very reasonable. 

[Colin Lindsay]

If you want a replacement switch I'm sure I have one in a box somewhere. Probably plenty of release arms too.

Go for an uprated replacement pivot pin which looks similar to that which you have with the flared top, and won't drop through.

[Clive]

2 minutes ago, Colin Lindsay said:

If you want a replacement switch I'm sure I have one in a box somewhere. Probably plenty of release arms too.

Go for an uprated replacement pivot pin which looks similar to that which you have with the flared top, and won't drop through.

Probably has the bushes/crinkly washers missing too?

Canley have a great article on clutch issues...

https://www.canleyclassics.com/?archive=clutch-problems

[Stratton Jimmer]

By my reckoning, the terminals of your wire to the OD gear lever switch are wrong in every respect. They should be two small female spade type connectors which push up into the switch and connect against the internal lugs. You can check the solenoid action by turning on the ignition, putting the car in 3rd or 4th and shorting the two switch leads. With your tunnel cover off, you should easily hear the solenoid click in and out as you do so.

[Colin Lindsay]

15 minutes ago, Stratton Jimmer said:

By my reckoning, the terminals of your wire to the OD gear lever switch are wrong in every respect. They should be two small female spade type connectors which push up into the switch and connect against the internal lugs. 

The one I have is similar to that in the photo; two very thin terminals to which two very small spade connectors attach.

[NonMember]

55 minutes ago, Stratton Jimmer said:

By my reckoning, the terminals of your wire to the OD gear lever switch are wrong in every respect. They should be two small female spade type connectors

No, the type in the photo are correct, to match the circular holes in the switch. The small spades are a commonly supplied bodge because they're more readily available.

[Josef]

3 hours ago, Colin Lindsay said:

If you want a replacement switch I'm sure I have one in a box somewhere. Probably plenty of release arms too.

Go for an uprated replacement pivot pin which looks similar to that which you have with the flared top, and won't drop through.

Got a source for those Colin? (I’m assessing the bits of a clutch release arm at the mo - most of it’ll likely need replacing though so if there’s a better bit I’ll go for that!)

[Papa Smurf]

42 minutes ago, Josef said:

Got a source for those Colin? (I’m assessing the bits of a clutch release arm at the mo - most of it’ll likely need replacing though so if there’s a better bit I’ll go for that!)

Thanks for the offer Colin, and to Josef, I’ve actually sourced the parts I need for the clutch lever from Rimmer, but they don’t have clutch levers.  I found one of those on EBay for £45 with release bearing and pushrod fitted.

[Papa Smurf]

6 hours ago, clive said:

As Nick say, it will start in gear, but worth warming up first to make life easier. Less faffing with the wheels spinning....

Use of proper axle stands, plus take the wheels off, maybe along with the spare, and stack them under the car as belt and braces. I do that, currently got a car 2ft off the ground, on largish  axle stands, but a stack of tyres at each end, just in case. Convenient storage too.

Jony is correct about inhibitor switches, which is why I said apply 12v diect to the solenoid, most OD issues are switches/wiring (or low oil level), so best to take them out of the equation. Just thinking, the car will need to be doing a fair speed to get the oil pump fast enough. Probably 20+mph.

Of course, the safer way is to disconnect the propshaft from the box, which having thought about it, you will be doing anyway. So do that. (but again, do not run in reverse with the OD engaged, it will cause £££££  damage)

If you need the OD, or even the box, looking at, I have a local chappie in Sussex who is very reasonable. 

Good idea on disconnecting the prop! Sounds much safer, suppose just need to be very gentle with the throttle to avoid overrevving given no load on engine that way

[Colin Lindsay]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/203607071708?hash=item2f67ed5bdc:g:3JsAAOSwikBcWbJT

This is the last one I bought; did the job well so far (car not on the road yet tho!)

[DanMi]

do you need the whole fork or just the pin (112516) and as a warning when I replaced my fulcrum pin many seemed to be slightly fat so the clutch fork couldn't move freely (probably nearest metric) I used the one Colin linked to which worked well. Also the release bearings many are selling outside of a clutch kit are not the correct depth. There is this NOS clutch fork on ebay  https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/165335548997?hash=item267ec44445:g:8D8AAOSw5iJiB8l3 but the release bearing looks like a mk1/early mk2 coil type (flat face) 

[Colin Lindsay]

If replaced like for like it should be fine; I had a short thread running in 2019 about the differences in arms and bearing carriers, as I have five or six variations on the shelf, all removed from different cars over the years but not labelled as to the source. The bearing will be curved for diaphragm and flat for coil, but make sure the actual bearing carrier is the same, plus the actual actuating arm, and all should be well. 

[Stratton Jimmer]

5 hours ago, NonMember said:

No, the type in the photo are correct, to match the circular holes in the switch. The small spades are a commonly supplied bodge because they're more readily available.

That cable wouldn't fit either of my cars. Only the spade type will.

[Pete Lewis]

as for the OD many have the slit round terminals not the small lucars yes they can be a poor fit 

waste of time trying to test an overdrive without driving to apply some torque

clean the filter and  top the gear oil up  EP90 GL4 

energize the solenoid and check the lever throw under the plate   solenoid side   in the lever is a 3/16"hole  when the sol pulls the lever hole should

align with a similar hole in the casing   (when worn a little more throw is ok )

easy to run on a supported car at a low speed see the revs drop or the speedo increase as you engage   no need to go mad  and dont need to use the clutch  start it in gear

pete

 

[NonMember]

1 hour ago, Stratton Jimmer said:

That cable wouldn't fit either of my cars. Only the spade type will.

Are you assuming the photo is of a complete tube? It's not. There's a slit down one side which accomodates the tab your mini-lucar kind-of-wedges onto.

[Clive]

49 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

as for the OD many have the slit round terminals not the small lucars yes they can be a poor fit 

waste of time trying to test an overdrive without driving to apply some torque

clean the filter and  top the gear oil up  EP90 GL4 

energize the solenoid and check the lever throw under the plate   solenoid side   in the lever is a 3/16"hole  when the sol pulls the lever hole should

align with a similar hole in the casing   (when worn a little more throw is ok )

easy to run on a supported car at a low speed see the revs drop or the speedo increase as you engage   no need to go mad  and dont need to use the clutch  start it in gear

pete

 

Pete, it will be J type OD, so no faffing with setting a solenoid up. 

[daverclasper]

I think maybe worth taking solenoid off on J type (though can done any time, by jacking up the GB to clear chassis if needed). Needs a shaved down 1" spanner to fit in the gap for removal, from memory?

Check that it rattles when shaken. I've had OD issues twice and it was this plunger? type thing in the solonoid, that was sticking, though would still work for the first few miles, then start playing up.

If it is stuck, then needs dismantling and cleaning, and maybe new o rings?.

The first time I cleaned it up, I used a bit of lubricant in the plunger area and worked ok for about 15000 miles, though left it dry the last time I stripped it, as I thought this lube may get dry and sticky with the heat and it caused it to stick after the first strip down?.

Maybe after electrical/low oil, this is a fairly common issue?