Vitesse price

[68vitesse]

Stopped using additive in my Mk1 2L Vitesse, seemed to run better without. Had a head gasket failure the other year and didn't bother with an unleaded conversion to valve seats as all ok.

Have always used super unleaded.

Regards

Paul

[johny]

Yes if you can run standard timing with out pinking using the usual test I think thats the best you can do and theres no need to have higher octane. The energy available in the fuel isnt changed by its octane rating so sorry guys theres no more power to be had😞

[Wagger]

If you look at the old 2 to 5 star leaded fuel octane chart, it covered 87 to 101 octane.

There were many side valve engines still running back in those days, and my low compression 7:1 ohv motorcycle would run on 2 star. Race tuning it to 10:1 required 5 star. It was unbearable when 5 star disappeared, so I reduced it to 9:1 using a thicker head gasket.

My petrol cars have ranged from old BMC, Triumph, Fords, Vauxhall, Peugeot, Renault, Toyota, Mazda and BMW. Two of the BMW's had a CR of 11:1. They would run ok on 97 unleaded with slight retardation and on 4 star leaded with no adjustment. One of them had Motronic Digital Engine Management using sensors to retard the ignition if knocking occurred. (1985 model)

Most of the others would run on 3 star or 95 ron unleaded. However, two Triumphs with the 1500 engine would pink on anything below 97 octane and had to be retarded into the 'Gutless' zone.

I never found additives necessary and monitored valve seat recession by regularly checking valve clearances. If recession occurs, the gaps will reduce. These usually increase with mileage.

Twenty years ago, Tetra Ethyl Lead was still availble available and that was the additive used in most fuel. Some of my classic colleagues used it. Cleveland Discol may have used Ethanol.

[johny]

Lets not get our additives mixed up though. Theres lead subsitute additives which are claimed to prevent possible valve seat recession but have no effect on combustion/pinking and then others that boost octane which has the opposite results.

To further confuse things you can get products that have both additives in one!

[PeteH]

With Petrol additives, allegedly around 3 to 6 pounds per tank full a 2% reduction in MPG from the use of E10 fuel, would bring the overall cost per tank of fuel within a penny or two of the similar cost/mile for E5 anyway?. Based on 35MPG when run on E5 Super, a 9 gallon Tank, Fuel price base from the RAC to-day.

                                 Gall    Mi/Tk  Cost/Tank  Additive? Total    Pence Mile
Tank Capacity:- E5    9        315    £67.58      £0.00    £67.58    21.4549470342857
Tank Capacity:- E10  9    308.7    £60.80     £4.50    £65.30    21.1517059212828
 

Pete

[johny]

Difficult calculation as I would imagine the difference in MPG for E10 varies depending on the engine model or even individual engine? It would be interesting to know what the energy content is per litre of each fuel type because as I say the octane rating is nothing to go by in this respect.... 

[micmak]

Interesting viewpoints, and a little confusing too!  My question about additives was from a lead point of view.  With only unleaded petrol available now, and taking into account that the car is a 1968 model, built when lead was in the petrol, I’m more concerned about damaging valves, or any other components, rather than performance concerns or fuel economy.  I might look at performance improvements later, but for now, I just want to drive the car safely. So with that in mind, do I need any additives just to drive the car without damaging it?

 

Thanks.

 

.....Mick.....

[Clive]

9 minutes ago, micmak said:

 

Interesting viewpoints, and a little confusing too!  My question about additives was from a lead point of view.  With only unleaded petrol available now, and taking into account that the car is a 1968 model, built when lead was in the petrol, I’m more concerned about damaging valves, or any other components, rather than performance concerns or fuel economy.  I might look at performance improvements later, but for now, I just want to drive the car safely. So with that in mind, do I need any additives just to drive the car without damaging it?

 

Thanks.

 

.....Mick.....

(probably) nothing required. I have driven probably 100k on triumph engines without additives or a converted head

The sensible advice is use the car as is, and IF (very unlikely) a problem develops, get the head machined. 

I am not really convinced that most additives actually do much, when unleaded fuels first appeared some testing was done, and most didn't work. I can't remember which were the good ones. But since then I expect things have changed. 

 

[johny]

Unfortunately the answer isnt very straight forward. The factors to take into account are:

if valves have been used previously with leaded fuel for many miles AND seats not reground they should have 'memory' which gives protection,

driving longer distances at high speed increases the risk of valve damage,

certain engines seem to be more prone to valve damage (mk1 6 cylinder?).

Weigh up these and then if the risk is high enough you should regularly monitor valve clearances to detect seat recession through the tappet clearances reducing.

If you find this then install hardened valve seats or use one of the recommended additives.... 

 

[Gary Flinn]

I had this recommended for use in my Current Classic by the previous owner

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjD2orxh-D8AhVTgVwKHQtnBkIQFnoECCUQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.millersoils-shop.co.uk%2Fvspe-power-plus-one-shot&usg=AOvVaw3sKlXJuGB-PNQsyyedpbhd

I have no idea if it works, but it states it contains a lead replacement additive, Octane Booster and also helps protects against the effects of Ethanol.

If your not sure and for piece of mind give it a try.

Gary

 

[Pete Lewis]

the 1600 Vit was driven like you stole it for 15 years with no additives or seat recession 

went like the wind and and never missed a beat no inserts no additives  just 97 sainsbugs fuel and a loud pedal 

Pete

[GrahamB]

1 hour ago, micmak said:

I’m more concerned about damaging valves, or any other components, rather than performance concerns or fuel economy.

You are not going to damage the engine by just running on 97 octane E5 petrol straight from the pump.  There is, reputably, a possibility of increased wear on the valve seats but I have never experienced this after many thousands of miles in my Spitfire.  If wear is detected by the valve clearances continually closing up, then consider having the expense of fitting hardened valve seat inserts.

[Chris A]

I use a lead replacement additive as I know the engine has been worked on, was told it has had a rebore and that hardened valve seats had not been fitted. I don't know if valves have been worked on but have assumed it likely.

Hence it's for peace of mind and adds just 0.5 centimes to the cost of 1 litre of 98 E5.

[NonMember]

Like Clive, Pete and Graham, I have done many miles on many Triumphs with original valves and no additives. The only one that suffered any valve recession was the Toledo - when driven on the RBRR, 2000 miles in 48 hours, fully loaded, with a faulty float valve that meant it was running seriously lean, and thrashed to make up the time lost to diagnosing that.

[Wagger]

As per my previous post above, just check your rocker clearances about every 4000 miles. If they reduce, then you need to take some action. Presumably you are not going racing or cruising at full throttle .

The unleaded 'Scare' in the1990's was aimed at making people renew their cars. Many owners of classics spent money unnecessarily having work done. For example, nearly all alloy cylinder heads had hardened valve seats as manufactured.

It is the octane rating that matters most, not the lead.

 

[micmak]

Well as for johny’s point about valve memory, I would assume there is no memory on these valves as the engine has been fully rebuilt.  It hasn’t been run-in yet.  The seller figures there might be 5 or 6 miles on the engine since being redone.  So, I think it would be prudent to use some lead replacement additive.  If the engine had several thousand miles of use today, I might be less careful.  But I don’t want to damage the valves of what is almost a “new” engine.  As Chris A says, for a small price, it will give peace of mind.   And as much as I can, I will use the highest octane I can get.  That might be a bit tricky because here in Ireland, often there is just one petrol nozzle at the station.  Just petrol ­­– no breakdown of octane rating at all!  I think it is E5, but I will check into that.    Thanks for all the input, Folks.  

[johny]

If so I, like Gary, recommend the Millers VSPe (it works out cheaper in the large bottles that treat 500L) as included you get an octane boost, fuel stabilser and ethanol protection plus it makes you more attractive to women😍

[NonMember]

51 minutes ago, micmak said:

I would assume there is no memory on these valves as the engine has been fully rebuilt.

If it's been recently rebuilt - and the valves were renewed - by any competent shop, I'd rather hope they used hardened valves and seats, thus making it an unleaded compatible head.

[PeteH]

I too think the "unleaded" scare was overdone, most of the old Ford crossflow engines where thrashed within an inch of their lives on the 60/70`s club rally circuits, by guys running on the proverbial "shoe string" for the Fun of it. They blew for many reasons, but not as far as I remember due to valve recesion!!.😂.

Pete

[JohnD]

The Americans had lead-less fuel nearly ten years before we did.   They never worried about valve recession, never saw it, and think the Brits are crazy!

[dougbgt6]

I used fuel additives briefly, turned my plugs pink and I was unable to tell if I was running weak or rich. Don't bother now.

Doug

[Pete Lewis]

if valve seat recession was a problem the forum would have some posts about members experiences   

i dont recall  ever reading a post about this.......... Myth 

Pete

[Wagger]

21 hours ago, NonMember said:

If it's been recently rebuilt - and the valves were renewed - by any competent shop, I'd rather hope they used hardened valves and seats, thus making it an unleaded compatible head.

I agree with Rob. I could recut valve seats with my hand tools an you would never notice if I had fitted the valves. Could charge you the 'Earth' if I was devious. Reputable workshops should do it properly.

As previously posted, many owners of classics were 'Ripped off' sending alloy heads off for replacement seats. Scamming is not a new 'Occupation'.

[Chris A]

2 hours ago, dougbgt6 said:

I used fuel additives briefly, turned my plugs pink and I was unable to tell if I was running weak or rich. Don't bother now.

Doug

If it had turned the plugs bright yellow I bet you would have carried on using it 😁

[johny]

2 hours ago, Pete Lewis said:

if valve seat recession was a problem the forum would have some posts about members experiences   

i dont recall  ever reading a post about this.......... Myth 

Pete

I like busting myths Pete but pretty sure this one exists but only under certain circumstances. My mk1 2L suffered rapid closing of some exhaust valve tappet clearances after driving on the continent with badly leaking carb spindles (one worse than the other). I knew something wasnt right as it was running hot but couldnt identify the cause until I returned. I replaced the spindles and adjusted the tappets (some were down to minimal clearance) but when I next remove the head will be very surprised not to find some valves further into their seats than is recommended🙁