That was a year that was..

[1969Mk3Spitfire]

3 hours ago, Dick Twitchen said:

I bought my latest boat from a chap who had sailed for decades and suddenly started to get a rash on his hands very easily, to the extent that even handling a shore line that may have just touched some anti-fouling bought him days of grief.

Dick

It’s nasty stuff, no doubt about that. There was a real threat by the authorities quite recently to ban its sale to UK individuals, that it could only be applied by pros under strict codes of practice. Fortunately, it was not carried through.

Here’s mine, freshly antifouled, ready for launch. What do you have?

[mark powell]

Next time in the loft, I will dig out photos of the old converted MFV that I lived on for 6 years.

A dribbling noise one day, alerted me to a leak below the waterline. An emergency lift out at the marina led to 'Teach Yourself Boat Building'. 

Bear in mind that she was a Scottish built wooden boat, larch on oak, 1933 with a history of fishing in the North Sea and well past her 'Best Before Date', I really let myself in at the deep end!

Gribble worm had made a meal of parts of the Stem, Keel, Sternpost, Rudder and parts of the planking. I set to with various 'How to' books and repaired it all. Then re-caulked under the 30ft waterline up to the rubbing strake with the correct oakum etc.

 Never again!

[PeteH]

1 hour ago, mark powell said:

correct oakum etc.

Father and Grandfather, where both Shipwrights, Caulking, especially of decks, with Oakum and sealing with pitch, was a regular job. They serviced the Hull Fishing Fleet until it`s demise. I still have their Caulking tools in the shed somewhere. They, and an Uncle who was a Ship Rigger,  all worked of the "conversion" of the Hispaniola, used in the film Treasure Island, Into the "Pequod" For the film Moby Dick. They had to go back the using "Adze" and axes, to produce genuine looking Spars, and the rigging was all sizal rope.

Pete

[Dick Twitchen]

19 hours ago, 1969Mk3Spitfire said:

What do you have?

Gave up sailing/racing big stuff when I left the RN; now a much smaller, older Cornish Shrimper but easily sailed single-handed with reflective Condor moment!

 

[mark powell]

15 hours ago, PeteH said:

Father and Grandfather, where both Shipwrights, Caulking, especially of decks, with Oakum and sealing with pitch, was a regular job. They serviced the Hull Fishing Fleet until it`s demise. I still have their Caulking tools in the shed somewhere. They, and an Uncle who was a Ship Rigger,  all worked of the "conversion" of the Hispaniola, used in the film Treasure Island, Into the "Pequod" For the film Moby Dick. They had to go back the using "Adze" and axes, to produce genuine looking Spars, and the rigging was all sizal rope.

Pete

Decks, I could cope with. It was working upside down under the hull that got me!

[mark powell]

As promised  Before, during and after...  About 6 months work.

[Bfg]

On 30/10/2022 at 06:22, Mathew said:

Good to see Katie being out and about. Makes that long haul getting her ready worth it. A lesson to us all , if you keep going and don't give up you can get there.

Back on the subject of Katie, rather than boats, I have to confess that I'm being pulled by the dark side of the force .. actually a 1971 British Racing (very dark) green TR6, with V8 motive power.  Although an old restoration (1997), and an even older (1982) conversion to the Rover 3500 power plant, the car appears (from description, and subsequent conversation with the seller (owner since 2011), and the few photos I've yet seen) to be in exceptionally good order.  It being stored in a Carcoon  for six winter months each year I think has very much to do with this. 

This particular TR6_v8 is obviously not for the purist, but having previously owned and relished the burble of a V8 (2.5 ltr Daimler), this 3-1/2 litre TR6 would be something that ticks many of my own boxes.  I've several times thought of converting Katie to use the Daimler's 140-bhp V8 lump, but I've still got a host of other jobs to do before that comes to the forefront.  The TR6's BRG colour is to my taste, as are the heated Mx5 leather seats (w/ separate headrests), its (Pete Cox rebuilt) Stag gearbox (with 28% overdrive) and diff,  plus the uprated CV jointed half-shafts.

The motor is not hotly tuned but was polish ported, has a viper-hurricane cam, and an Edelbrock 4-barrel carb (from the U.S. of A). It's is thought to offer around 170_bhp (to the road) but more tuned for oodles of torque, being driven through black minilite wheels.   Dual carriageway cruising of between 65 and 70 mph is said to return almost 30 mpg. The car also is also fitted with an original aluminium framed TR4 Surrey-top back-light.   

The aluminium Rover engine would be much the same weight as the TR4 four cylinder cast iron lump, so handling and weight distribution of the car should not be upset by the apparent increase in size. Still the car's front brakes have been uprated to four-pot (specialist supplied but possibly derived from Toyota) plus servo, and its suspension dampers are also firmer.  I'm not sure about these, nor the car being 1" lower all round, as I don't want a jerky ride for touring, but really that can only be assessed by the seat of my pants. 

All in all quite a package, and for less than what I've already spent on Katie, which as I say is demanding still more time and attention yet, although I have now bought most of the expensive parts needed.  

I have a few issue though which hold me back (..aside from my concerns about the harshness of ride with the lowered suspension) and those are 1. I have an emotional attachment to Katie (sounds foolishly sentimental but I never claimed not to be ! )   2. that I much prefer the 1960's styling of the TR4 to the TR6's 1970's hairy-chest image ..I like the look of Katie  just as she is.  3. I've spent a whole lot of effort creating a decent chassis and extra stiffness through the steel g/box cover, as well as the addition space inside. and 4. that with Katie I do now have a good idea of what yet needs to be done (..another couple of thousand + 6 months work !).  Even then, she'll be ten miles away from being concourse ..And that in itself is attractive to me.  Rightly or wrongly I feel that perhaps the TR6 is too tidy for a scruffy old duffer like me.!  

The attraction of the TR6 is in the V8 burble, the oodles of torque for my aspirations of lazy long-legged grand-touring, The fact that it is said to be already sorted, whereas Katie is still demanding, and that I suspect (judging by the panel fits) that the TR6 was previously very much more carefully restored. And Katie  will never be correct unless she's pulled apart and done again. 

Emotions mixed with practicalities..  As one old fart to another - What do you reckon ? 

Pete

The dark side pulls strongly

 

 

[Peter Truman]

The TR5 is soo expensive compared to a 4A, I'm surprised that you never see a 4A conversion to 6 potter PI for sale?

Not a fan of V8's the burble just doesn't do it for me compared to the sweet sound and balance of a straight six. Also don't like boxer 4's cause of the unbalanced noise.

[1969Mk3Spitfire]

Difficult decision. Do you want to be a car restorer or a driver of a restored car?

I’d buy and enjoy the TR6. Assuming that you’d give it a thorough going-over to check that sellers definition of “sorted” is the same as yours.

Lazy, long legged grand touring awaits. Nice car.

[thescrapman]

Now if it had a Stag engine in it.......

[mark powell]

Daimler 2.5 in Katie?  Go on, you know you want to!  Lovely hemi engine.

[Bfg]

[Firefly]

• Quote

   

   i have been struggling to get an even tick over!

  Have you got an air leak on the inlet before the carbs? Spray some easistart or similar around every joint, if the revs rise you have found a leak. Mac

[Bfg]

On 08/11/2022 at 22:20, Bfg said:

The pull of the dark side is strong it is

I dropped the seller a message this morning to express my enthusiasm for his TR6 V8 and thanks ..but I'll not be pursuing the purchase.  As explained I like driving Katie  (..despite the long list of jobs yet to be done) and have too many unfinished projects (including Katie ).  Unfinished projects make me unhappy. And having another, albeit said to be ready to go "with no outstanding issues", would still need to be 'adjusted' to accommodate my size and tastes, and otherwise be a distraction to my getting on with those that persistently nag in the back of my mind.  

He replied to suggest that he was quite relieved , as he (despite a good number of enquiries) has thought about it and again is inclined to keep her. 

So there we are, I was sorely tempted, but resisted.  Peace prevails . . .

Pete

 

[Bfg]

Morning all .. 

Katie and I didn't get out and about last weekend, most-part due to inclement weather, but today's forecast was for little chance of rain, and so again taking the opportunity while the weather is mild we went for a little drive (..as always with the roof open).   I had hoped to follow the old Roman Road, between Colchester and Cambridge, to Halstead and to visit Hedingham Castle's monumental square-tower Norman keep, with its fabulous Great Hall, but checking on the internet beforehand I see it's closed at this time of year. 

An alternative I'd shortlisted ..but where the driving is mostly just unpleasant, was also in Essex..   Hadleigh Castle  was once an awesome sight, with a strategic outlook overlooking the Thames Estuary.  Built (c.1215 onwards) by Hubert de Burgh, Chief Minister & Justiciar to King John (1199 -1216).

"Hubert was a trusted follower of the King (John was the one who was forced to sign the Magna Carta .. the first document to put into writing the principle that the King and his government were not above the law), and he (Hubert) was custodian of the Royal castles at Windsor and Dover.  At Dover he proved his military skill by successfully defending the castle during a prolonged and fierce siege, in 1216 (disgruntled English Barons wanted to oust King John and so had offered Prince Louis of France the English crown. He in turn brought an army to quash any opposition.  Although at first he succeeded in taking a number of strategic strongholds throughout SE England, Dover castle managed to hold out despite another attempt, in May 1217, and the French use of the trebuchet.  Dover Castle stood as a proud symbol of English resistance to Foreign rule.  Prince Louis failed and after being decisively beaten at Lincoln and then, in the August, loosing his fleet - with Hubert de Burgh’s own ship leading the attack.. he gave up on the quest).    Effectively ruler of England, during young Henry III's childhood, Hubert built this large turreted castle at Hadleigh as a statement of his power.  His success came to an end after quarrels with the king. As a result he forfeited his lands, including Hadleigh in 1239."

So although Hubert knew a thing or two about castles, the site of Hadleigh was an unfortunately unstable foundation. In short, the soil moved under the weight of stone and things started to fall apart (literally).  He was loyal to the throne, a valiant general, and had spent a fortune on building the castle ..only to loose it twenty years later, to the throne. Things don't seem to change much in politics ..except that it happens very much more quickly nowadays

It's a 50-mile drive to Hadleigh from the north side of Ipswich, and the drive was 'orrid.  The A12 came to a standstill, the amount of Essex traffic was extraordinary, and many drivers lived up to their reputation of always having something to prove.   I didn't want to drive all the way there and back on motorway & dual carriageways so I dialed-in a route via Maldon.  That only succeeded in landing me in the midst of traffic queues for Sainsbury's and B&Q.   ..Seriously don't these people know that the film The Matrix was pretty much about them ?   Anyway, going that way did find me signposted to Layer Marney Tower.   I had heard of it, but couldn't remember what I read. Still as I was passing nearby - I thought I'd go and have a look. . .

  

^ It looks a nice place to visit, but as the sign says 'closed' . . .

^ ah yes, I remember .. an unusually grand (over-powering in size) Tudor gatehouse ..to a manor house.  Not a period in history of particular interest to me but nevertheless magnificent brickwork  ..and I liked the guard rams in the driveway. 

Moving onwards and upwards I reached my destination .. in the fog. . .

^ The view from this elevated location overlooking the Thames Estuary were spectacular too. 

But.., there's always a bright side to life . . .

^ That rather little white dot in the sky is the sun.   However, looking straight upwards were clear blue skies.. And so although we were pretty high up ( for East Anglia)  it was but a sea-mist that had likewise come to visit the castle. 

And like all visitors, sooner or later they leave . . .

^ literally just half an hour later, the mist had all but dispersed and it was a beautiful day. 

As previously said, the geology of site was unsuitable for a castle with immensely thick stone walls, and so despite being rebuilt several times, over the next couple of centuries, and being a favourite of King Edward III - the towers leaned over and crumbled, and the south wall, complete with foundations tumbled down the hill.

By the 18th centuryit was a derelict ruin but the curtain wall was still an enclosure, and the north west towers was both still mostly there.  Not long ago, from the air, it looked like this. . .

   www.geoessex.org.uk

^ as you can see, referencing the scale of the people.. it was a pretty big place.  And seeing as it wasn't built by the crown or for the crown, it's certainly a statement with regard to the wealth of this man - Hubert de Burgh.   Rather like Framlingham Castle, in Suffolk, Hadleigh castle was built as an enclosure ..a curtain wall with towers and ramparts, but without a keep. The principle accommodation were great halls and numerous buildings, stables, and workshops built within.

The original towers appeared to have been smaller square ones, as seen to the right of the picture below, whereas the huge round  towers and the barbican gatehouse are thought to have been built by Edward III (around 1360 - 70), as these reflect the advanced designs in military architecture.

for King Edward III, at that later date, it probably looked something like this . . .

^ Overlooking marshland, then Benfleet Creek and the coastline of Canvey Island, Hadleigh Ray (estuary) over to the Thames it was a commanding position and statement of military power.  

Today, after the mist had cleared, I took these . . .

 

^ Round towers were expensive to build and less accommodating than the early Norman square towers, but they were a stronger defense against undermining (and subsidence).  Large halls on three levels provide luxurious accommodation, with a garderobe and latrine on each floor, as well as each with their own generous fireplace and windows..  In the second photo you might just make out the grey silhouette of a huge container ship on the horizon (just to the left of the tower) as it steams up and into the Thames estuary, most likely bound for Tilbury docks.   

  

^ detail of the chimney from the lower two floors, the third floor had their fireplace against another wall.  ..And the graffiti of names and dates scratched into the soft stones of the remaining window alcoves. You'll note that most of the letters are scratched complete with serifs, and even just a quick looks reveals the dates 1849, 1853, and so forth ..quite fascinating.   

^ Looking across to Canvey Island and beyond.  The weather turned out to be a nice afternoon and evening.   And the drive home, again via Maldon, turned out to be a good run with the sun behind us.  

Bidding you pleasant classic Triumph motoring with sun on your backs too. 

And of course .. a good day,

Pete 

 

 

 

[Bfg]

On 28/10/2022 at 10:10, Bfg said:

As it happens I also had to pick up some shopping. . .

^ Beauty in engineering.

Some may think it scaremongery, but I'm led to believe that at least two TR's  - just in our local group, have suffered hub failure and the resultant loss of a wheel ..and I didn't want to be the next. The half-shafts on Katie  when I bought her were swapped out because ; the wheel bearing on one side was worn as well as the spline on the other.  The second-hand replacements I bought were within my budget at the time, but also an unknown quantity - not least because their hub's nuts were undone. Sound warning advice from those on this excellent forum - who know better than I..  warned of the risk following the excessive force required to remove those hubs ...and the unseen stress damage to the metal.

Those I fitted seem to be OK, but next year I hope to be towing a camping trailer, travelling further afield.. and I'd rather like to be confident - that a wheel is not going to fall off.   So, new  hubs, together with CV jointed half shafts, courtesy of CDD ( Classic Driving Developments).

Along with these I've also bought a new  driveshaft / propshaft  ..courtesy of Bailey & Morris, St. Neots.  I'm pretty certain that Katie's  existing has a slight out-of-balance resonance  ..because the car's vibration above 60mph is independent of engine speeds (ie., still there when the clutch is disengaged) and, having swapped out the half shafts - its still there.  Of course the used / replacement half-shafts I fitted might have been similarly be out of balance, but I've a feeling it's the propshaft.  

I presume the exhaust system and diff need to be dropped out of the way, to remove and fit a prop-shaft, and that's a job I don't want to have to repeat, so again it was a matter of do it once - by doing it right. Only a new driveshaft gave me that reassurance ..and it makes sense to do this at the same time as the half-shafts are removed.

Big bills yeah, but hopefully these components will outlast my lifetime, and in the meantime will add to Katie's  reliability and smoothness ..and to my peace of mind.

"Along with these I've also bought a new  driveshaft / propshaft  ..courtesy of Bailey & Morris, St. Neots" ..and BIG thanks to my friend Rich C-R of the TR Register's East Saxon group. . .

The reason for this was what Rich describes as my 'chasing a vibration' or perhaps more accurately the cause  of said annoyance .. which has been there since before I bought Katie.  I know that because when I bought and originally collected her from Bury St Edmunds - this car's vibration was so bad that Rich further commented something to the effect that it was a little "embarrassing to be on an open dual carriageway and being overtaken by lorries."  And at the first junction - I pulled off to check the wheels were on tight, there was no big bulge on / or the tread had part torn off a tyre (..and to investigate the engine overheating). The whole car shaked and rattled, as did the steering, the bonnet and my teeth above 60mph.

Funny to think that the prior owner must have thought this acceptable. Perhaps he believed "They all do that sir" ..?  

My first guess as to the cause was the thick rubber white-wall-tyre embellishers.  They were the first things to go ..which improved things to a degree but nowhere near enough.  So I bought a set of pressed steel wheels to replace the wires and their splined hubs.  I repainted the steel wheels and had new tyres fitted & balanced. This happened at the same time as the (additionally braced) chassis swap. Things got noticeably better, but still not right above 60.  Next up was to measure and reset the body onto the chassis mounts, and add four more (mountings) ..which I knew wasn't the cause of the vibration, but with the car not being a unified structure - it excessively twisted and distorted along (subsided) unclassified country lanes.  At the same time I swapped out the flimsy grp gearbox cover with the steel one I'd made.  Again improvements were noted (..despite the dashboard brace / H-frame now not being fitted).  I was now faced with fine vibration rather than the whole car shaking (except at tick-over). 

Next up was to replace the old half shafts - one of which the spline was worn & clonky, and the other's wheel bearing was decidedly iffy, and then the cracked trailing arm. Again a slight improvement was felt. The car had reach the point where above 62mph the vibration was felt as more of a buzz through the throttle pedal and gear knob.  Then I swapped the cast iron cooling-fan-extension for the aluminium one I'd had specially made. Tick-over was much now much smoother, but that annoying vibration above 62 - 65mph persisted. 

Of course as I got rid of one source of vibration, then I myself was able to more finely tune into the next.  Still anyone would have noted that the car still vibrates at motorway speeds.  Dropping the clutch and it's still there.  Aside from engine work and its tuning, I still have five obvious courses of action . . .

1.   to replace the prop / drive shaft for one which has new UJ's and is balanced  ..the cheaper and easiest next move.
2.   to replace the second-hand half-shafts and hubs I'd fitted.  Uncomfortable with the prospect of hub failure - I spent the kid's inheritance and bought new. And because CV jointed half shafts are said to be smoother than even coated splines, I took that option. 
3.   to rebuild or replace the diff.  I don't know if this would cause the vibration and since oil was put in (..after my test driving the car, post chassis swap), it's not particularly whining.
4.   to rebuild the front suspension and replace those wheel bearings.  I know the front suspension needs rebuilding with new lower trunnion pins, but I'm not getting a whole lot of vibration through the (thin wooden) steering wheel, and so I think that task will do little to rid Katie  of this vibration.  
5.  to have the cast-iron rear brake drums re-machined (for better balance) or else replaced.  I once had a Norton commando motorcycle and bought a brand new cast-iron rear brake drum for it. As i was completely restoring and rebuilding the bike I had it re-machined for balance. The engineer who did the work couldn't believe how out of balance the brand new part was.  For Katie, I long ago bought a pair of aluminium Alfin brake drums - which being lighter and purpose made (rather than a mass production item) I think ought to sort that out.  I've now also bought new brake shoes, so those are on the job list.

I'm doing one job at a time though, just because I've so far followed a systematic approach and would like (..just out of interest) to identify and learn where the present vibration is coming from.  I suspect that it won't be just one thing but, as before, will be in part be attributable to each of the above items. 

Today - it was the prop / driveshaft's turn to be swapped out. . .

^ the new driveshaft has indexing arrows which mark the telescopic spline's alignment. The one arrow is just by the label (which tells me to grease the spline with lithium-based grease), and the other arrow can just be seen on the casting next to the UJ joint.   The old driveshaft has the indexing arrow on the tube, but for the life of me I cannot find one on the casting next to the UJ, so its assembly may have been be correctly orientated or else 180 degrees out. 

Before fitting this shaft, and because the satin black paint didn't seem very protective - I wiped it clean and gave it a decent coat of clear lacquer. I then let that harden overnight.  Taken today, my first photo shows it now looking decidedly gloss black.  Then this afternoon I undid the knurled cap and pulled the spline apart to wipe copious amounts of lithium based CV-joint grease within.  I likewise pumped the same grease into the CV joints.

^ the balance weight on the new driveshaft, is typical of those I've often seen.   I found no balance weight on the old shaft.

up, up and away ..again

   

^ undoing the old driveshaft nuts was awkward but do-able.  The front in particular was tight fit to get into and with a limited amount of room to work (9/16" open end spanner), which was not helped by the dampening weight I have on the back end of the overdrive casing.  

Oil leaks pretty apparently burnt onto the exhaust pipe. It seems as though it's mostly coming from within the bell housing, but clearly the adapter plate between the gearbox and overdrive is weeping oil too.   Sausages !     Still after two and half thousand miles we have no puddles under the car (from after a drive), just an assortment of drips here and there on the thick cardboard sheets I have under there. ..

I had read, after searching through the archive pages of the TR forum, that some owners had difficulty in getting their driveshafts out of their car's tunnel.  And so, with the extra long T-shirt plating I'd had added to this TR4A chassis - I suspected that the centre section of the exhaust and probably also the diff would have to be dropped out of the way. I hoped not to need to remove the gearbox cover from inside the car, but that was a possibility too . . .

    

^ I'm very pleased to say that Katie's  driveshaft came out without needing to remove, or even loosen, anything else.   Delightfully uneventful !

 

^ The old and the new are slightly different lengths (with the splines pushed in) but only by 6 - 8mm.  The UJ's on the old were floppy but with no discernable amount of play in them, but its spline had enough torsional slack to be clearly seen and to allow it to clunk. 

^ putting the new driveshaft up and through the tunnel, passed the damper, exhaust and additional chassis plating was no problem. I did try protecting the shaft from the edge of the chassis T-shirt plate with double overlaid plastic sheeting, but it didn't do anything and wasn't necessary. Getting my big hands and fat fingers up there to teh nuts was just as awkward as a lot of jobs on these cars but again quite do-able.   I'd bought and used new nylocs and, for peace of mind, put those on with medium strength Loctight. With a long ring spanner on the bolt head and an open spanner, doubled in length by interlocking a ring spanner onto its other end, I tightened those nuts as much as I could.  No room for a torque wrench in that tight space. 

Job well done    ..in a very dull and cool afternoon within this poly-tunnel. 

I haven't tried driving the car yet, but hopefully I'll note a further improvement (less vibration) at motorways speeds.  

Again my BIG thanks to Rich for his help in getting the excellent quality parts I needed, and to those with experience-proven advice on the TR forum - which help me know what I might be faced with.  

Bidding you all a pleasant day,

Pete

 

 

[Bfg]

Rain here throughout yesterday (Sunday) morning but that cleared up for a mostly sunny afternoon.  Rain again in the evening. 

I did get out, a bit later than I'd hoped because I forgot the car was still up on the four stands and I'd not picked up my tools from swapping the driveshaft, but still out I did get.  From here in Ipswich I headed up the A14 a couple of junctions to the turn off and follow the A140 to Norwich.  It's not a particularly interesting drive because of its straightness and 50mph speed limit, even on what might be considered clear and straight sections. Nevertheless the motorway speeds followed by trundling along gave me a chance to reassess Katie's  pestering vibration issues.

I'm glad to report that after fitting the new prop / driveshaft (..and doing nothing else) the vibration at a steady 68 - 72 mph (GPS indicated motorway speeds ) is noticeably better.

..but at the same time I'm disappointed that vibration between 45 and 58-ish now appears to be worse.  As previously mentioned, I suspect the situation is a matter of alleviating one (out-of-balance / out-of-true) component, only for the resultant relative smoothness to highlight another issue. 

I accept that vibration can be tracked (..to an extent) by its frequency, and those in the drive-train are dependent on the gearing...   Engine revs reduced by the gearbox ratio is the prop / driveshaft speed, and that is further reduced by the diff ratio to give the rear axle / half-shaft and road wheel's frequency.  Switching in n' out of overdrive quickly changes the gearbox ratio / engine revs by 500prm, and dropping the clutch altogether serves to isolate (high rev) engine vibration from those coming from the drive-train &/or wheels  ..well at least on smooth  tarmac, which is often lacking on the roads around here.  

Personally I'm not at all experienced in pinpointing the source of a car's vibrations, particularly where one frequency overlaps another, and perhaps might even serve, in part, to cancel another out. However as far as I might ascertain ; the vibration I now feel is

1. coarseness in this four-pot engine (worse between 2500 - 3000rpm).  The long-stroke TR engine is inherently pretty crude and I suspect that mine is out of balance too. The question is whether this is a matter of ; component imbalance, compression imbalance, or tuning at any particular revs .??    In small but significant part, I addressed the former when I swapped the cooling-fan extension.  Still I need to investigate the state of each cylinder's compression, the distributor and its auto-advance mechanism, and of course the balance of the twin carbs at any give revs.    
2. From feeling the vibration at road speed (with clutch disengaged) plus a very slight wobble of the steering wheel - I suspect that one or two of the road wheels / tyres are not in balance.  Even though they were balanced when the new tyres were fitted, two-and-a-half-thousand miles ago, two of the wheels' stick-on weights simply dropped off as I delivered them up to Wolverhampton, to be fitted by M&T who did the chassis swap.  As best I might, I re-stuck the weights back onto the inside of the rims in the same locality they lay in the back of my Chrysler, but I couldn't honestly say that one of those was very accurate - as I'd already lifted the wheel out of the back of the car when I spotted its strip of dropped-off weights.  The outline of those balance-weights were then marked with a felt pen onto the rim, but of course by then it was too late.  It's best to have them all checked again, if only to dismiss the possibility of they being the cause of vibration.
3. These half-shafts' spline occasionally clonk as they unlock, and I discern rhythmic noise from the rear axle assembly.  My friend Rich phoned me the other day to say that another of our local group has just fitted the same CV jointed half-shafts as I have to his TR - and is delighted with its now quiet smoothness.  I have the half-shafts on the shelf, so that job can now be done.

Of course, there may still be vibration from the diff., and/or from the cast-iron rear brake-drums being out of balance.

Doing these things one step at a time isn't at all necessary but it is educational for me. 

Pete

[Bfg]

12 minutes ago, Bfg said:

From here in Ipswich I headed up the A14 a couple of junctions to the turn off and follow the A140 to Norwich. 

 

The best part of 40 miles at 50mph would be one thing but when this chap in front of me insisted on toddled along at 42mph - I got grumpy and overtook    ..A few minutes later, at the very next roundabout - he and the long stream of cars that followed were behind an articulated lorry  ..left behind with my not_very_Christian thoughts  

my destination ;  Norwich Cathedral . . .

^ apparently now the second tallest spire in England.  In practice, the town has grown up around the Cathedral to such an extent that I had problems spotting it. Thankfully TomTom led me to the back door and parking in a very pleasant courtyard . . .

"The cathedral close is one of the largest in Europe and has more people living within it than any other "  ..I guess that doesn't include the Vatican ? 

As almost always, I drove Katie  with her driver's lid off (the roof half open), but park it with that half-lid back in place.  Driving in the November air was cool but still I like to see the colours of the sky and trees.  I also passed by, at different stages along the route, perhaps four or five birds of prey. They're a real delight for me to spot.

As a 900+ year old Cathedral and seat (with Saxon throne) of the Bishop of Norfolk for all those years, it's naturally a pretty imposing place, but nothing now to what it once must have been.  It was once part of a St. Benedict monastery whose lands and buildings landscaped rather than enclosed it.  Like most other religious foundations it fell to Henry VIII's dissolution of the monasteries between 1536 and 1541.  The cathedral church however is still for the Church of England Diocese of Norwich ..and an active place of worshipful prayer and learning, which along with hospitality were the keystone Rules of Life of the Benedictine order. 

"This Norman cathedral was constructed out of flint and mortar and faced with a cream coloured Caen limestone.  An Anglo-Saxon settlement and two churches were demolished to make room for the buildings. The cathedral was completed c. 1145 with the Norman tower still seen today, topped with a wooden spire covered with lead.  Episodes of damage necessitated its rebuilding and the stone (96m high) spire was erected in 1480.  Inside., "the ceiling bosses of Norwich Cathedral are one of the world's greatest medieval sculptural treasures that survived the iconoclasm (..widespread destruction of religious icons) of the Tudor and English civil war periods".

 

"Combining features of ancient Roman and Byzantine buildings and other local traditions, Romanesque  architecture is known by its massive quality of thick walls, round arches, sturdy pillars, barrel vaults, large towers and decorative arcading."   (NB. The latter 12th century onwards Gothic style of window is easily distinguished by pointed arches).  The nave's barrel / rib vaulted ceiling reflects true devotion by the stone masons, not least because at each conjunction are carved and painted bosses.  Most are unique. . .

"There are over 1,000 bosses in the cathedral and cloisters ; the earliest subjects are natural, mostly flowers and foliage. Then come figural representations such as green men, acrobats, mythical animals, hunting scenes and single bosses which show a story such as events from the lives of the saints. Then there are narratives which tell a story in a sequence of bosses. The nave vault shows the history of the world from the creation. Later bosses revert to foliage or formal subjects such as coats of arms. The bosses can be seen most clearly in the cloisters, where they are lower than those elsewhere. The east range has much foliage, and a sequence of the Passion of Jesus. The north range has the Resurrection and scenes of Mary, mother of Jesus and the saints. The south and west walk have the Apocalypse, as well as the Annunciation and Herod's Feast.

Norwich Cathedral has the second largest cloisters in England, only exceeded by those at Salisbury Cathedral "   . . .

  

 

I stayed for the Cathedral's  Festal Evensong - Sunday choir service, and which started off with me sitting in the South Transept. The choir itself in the crossing, by the organ (presently with scaffolding for its refurbishment * ) but I soon moved because the acoustics in the transept were awful (distorted).  Instead I spent some quiet time in the ambulatory (passage around the outside of the central worship place and the Bishop's throne). listening to the choral service and taking in the wafts of incense, the ancient (c.13th) ceiling paintings and the varied details of Norman architecture. Off the Ambulatory are four small chapels, each very individual.

* Organ builders Harrison and Harrison spent three weeks removing most of the organ's 6,655 pipes to be transported to Durham for further work. Once complete, the pipes will be reinstalled between January and March next year. The scaffolding will be taken down after Easter 2023 and an 11-week 'voicing period' will follow.

 

^ If you want to really experience medieval architecture then dusk is a very good time to do so. 

  

The drive home was in the dark, and so after 40 chilly-air miles - the pub I've adopted as my local served a welcoming Sunday roast beef followed by apple pie in a moat of custard.  I came out and it was raining, so for the five miles home I dropped the driver's lid on the car.  In total that's about ten miles I've now driven Katie  with the roof up / on,  I must either be getting soft or else my timing to avoid the rain is getting worse ..perhaps both !  

That's it for another evening, I bid you a good one.

Pete

 

[1969Mk3Spitfire]

@Bfghave you measured installed wheel rim radial and lateral run out? How about front steering and suspension?

Many competent engineers spend their entire career failing to fully resolve NVH issues. Notoriously difficult subject.

[Clive]

We were in Norwich sunday eve/Monday, but arrived late, and then popped out to meet a friend on Monday before heading home. 500 miles or so in teh Spitfire, including 85 miles on a 12 car rally, where we suffered from not having 6 inches of ground clearance....

 

As to vibrations, a visit to "vibration free" will pinpoint the problem(s) but at a cost.

[Pete Lewis]

on transmission noise and vibration don't discount the clutch disc damper springs are at fault they   can cause very misguided conclusions 

these can really upset a good transmission if they are incorrect spec or faulty hub damper springs  

{Pete

 

 

[Bfg]

On 21/11/2022 at 19:37, Bfg said:

Personally I'm not at all experienced in pinpointing the source of a car's vibrations, particularly where one frequency overlaps another, and perhaps might even serve, in part, to cancel another out. However as far as I might ascertain ;

It's just 2,500 or so miles since Katie's  wheels had new tyres which were balanced when fitted. And today I took them all off to be checked (for balance) again and trueness ..now that the tyres must have settled onto their rims fully. 

Surprising, to me, was that the first four garages & tyre centres I tried..  couldn't do the job for reasons of their having too much work. Another tyre centre had closed their business down.  But the next garage I tried, on the same industrial estate, was empty of work .!?  The chap there was most accommodating and despite each of the wheels being out of true - he seemed determined to get the best balance he could, putting on weights and where necessary removing them again to place new ones in order to get a marginally better balance.   Each of the wheels that had been used (ie., aside from the spare) required between 20 and 30 grams more and on each and the balancing weights were determined to be needed about 30 degrees further around the rims.  odd

Cost ;  £36 for the five.

16 hours ago, 1969Mk3Spitfire said:

have you measured installed wheel rim radial and lateral run out? How about front steering and suspension?

We also determined which of the five appeared to be running truer, and so upon returning home I refitted the better on the front, and the worst was back in the boot as the spare. Those wheels which remained on the same axle (front or back) were swapped to the other side to where they were (..yes, I had labelled each as they were removed off the car).

A subsequent test drive down the A14 observed a further small but discernible improvement in (lesser) vibration, and now there's almost  no wobble of the steering wheel - at any speed ..despite the particularly light steering on this car.  Perhaps more significantly ; the engine vibration was clearly what it was, and similarly the rear axle vibration & its noises were more easily defined at their lower rpm. Those coincided with the frequency of the very slight flitching still detectable through the steering wheel. 

It's been an education to have worked through this systematically, one step at a time..  to now reach a point where each source of vibration can be pin-pointed (hopefully !)

Although having the wheels rebalanced resulted in only a very small (but discernible) improvement - I rate today's efforts as a success insomuch as it clarifies the way forward     ..the next task is to swap out the half-shafts.

There appears to be light from the end of the tunnel.

Pete

[Peter Truman]

A Mits Lancer Coupe I had needed tyres and I fitted Firestone (reputable make) all balanced and steering track adjusted, on the drive home when I reached around 90kph the steering shake/vibration was terrible, so back I went thice each time a little better but still not acceptable. Finally I instructed them to fit Goodyears (with full refund) problem solved so don't always look past the obvious.

[Bfg]

11 hours ago, Pete Lewis said:

on transmission noise and vibration don't discount the clutch disc damper springs are at fault they   can cause very misguided conclusions 

these can really upset a good transmission if they are incorrect spec or faulty hub damper springs  

Yes indeed.  But the clutch, in its entirety, was one of the first things I replaced when I bought Katie, as the thrust bearing fork pin had sheared, and its back-up pin had fallen out.  It's a new Borg & Beck diaphragm type, fitted by myself, which has since covered less than 3000 miles. I have no reason ..either due to feel, noise, or the vibration symptoms I now feel, to suspect it (in this instance). I may be wrong of course,  but I feel the engine itself (pulling unevenly) and the half-shafts are 90% of the remaining the vibration factors. The gearbox on the other hand, despite being professionally rebuilt is noisy in second and seeps oil - a poor job in which I have little confidence. 

Road surface is also a contributing factor on some (many !) surfaces, not least due to it being a traditional sports car, the car having a stiffer chassis-body structure, and red poly-bushes throughout its suspension's pivots. Those I'll have to live with. 

As Mk3Spit suggests, there may be some benefit in rebuilding the front suspension and steering, although I cannot imagine very much (with regard to vibration). Still, as the front of this car is perched at least an inch too high - I will be 'attending to' those in due course, including swapping out the springs.  Harmonics from road springs are difficult to tie down, and I suspect impossible to focus on - when other assemblies are even more out of balance.  

Pete 

[Bfg]

4 minutes ago, Peter Truman said:

A Mits Lancer Coupe I had needed tyres and I fitted Firestone (reputable make) all balanced and steering track adjusted, on the drive home when I reached around 90kph the steering shake/vibration was terrible, so back I went thice each time a little better but still not acceptable. Finally I instructed them to fit Goodyears (with full refund) problem solved so don't always look past the obvious.

agreed. The new Continental Contact CT22 tyres I fitted have a relatively chunky tread compared to many more modern / street tyres.  I read the reviews before I bought, and those were on the whole favourable but that doesn't mean they best suit a TR4A on today's roads.  As a life-term motorcyclist I've experienced some pretty horrid feelings from certain tyres. Not had a lot of luck with Continental tyre on any of my bikes. 

Thanks, Pete