Oil filter

[Clive]

it is just a thin rubber flap that "seals" when there is no oil pressure, and opens with the slightest waft of oil pressure. However, the seal is not 100% and likely to slowly let oil past. That is on the outside ring where oil enters the filter.

However, oil can pass through the filter material and drain out the centre into the engine if the filter is pointing up. To stop that happening you need a "double" anti drain filter, which none of the Triumph suppliers sell, but are available (diesel escort being one that fits, but there are others and you need to check/research what is what)

Worth noting that there is NO proper filter for the spin-off conversion. Never has been. Mocal, who made the adaptors used a 3/4UNF thread simply because it is readily available and used by many manufacturers. The Triumph suppliers probably chose one that fitted and was easy to source with a health mark-up. 

Back to the main point. I would not rely on even a double valved filter to retain oil for more than a few days, so best practice is to get the filter pointing down. A small filter really is not an issue as long as the engine has regular oil/filter changes and is not filthy inside. Certainly pointing down is way more important than filter size.

If you really worry about the crank bearings running without oil then fit an accusump. Problem is then eliminated.

[Nick Jones]

13 minutes ago, clive said:

However, the seal is not 100% and likely to slowly let oil past.

They vary in effectiveness from unit to unit and some makes have a better success rates than others.  They don't call Fram the "orange can of death" for nothing.

I have been using Mann 724/1 (as recommended by Marcus some time ago) on the Vitesse.  This is relatively long and is a tight fit in the available space, meaning it is only just below horizontal.  The point about this particular filter type is that it has double non-return flaps and I have been finding them very effective on the Vitesse.  However, we recently put one on the Spitfire using a 5/8" - 3/4" adapter (thanks again Clive!) and unfortunately that one has proved utterly ineffective, draining down completely in just a few hours.  We swapped it for a Mann 714/2 at the weekend (no oil spilt whatever during removal, proving that it was completely empty after standing over night !!).  The new 714/2 also has two non-return flaps, an internal relief pressure of 1,5 Bar and is about half the length...………. The added benefit of the small size being that if it does drain down it fills up quicker!  The rather large and completely empty 724/1 was keeping the oil light on for a scarily long time while it refilled.

Getting oil pressure promptly on start-up however long it's been standing is one of the most effective measures an engine designer can take to ensure long engine life.  Regular oil/filter changes (using correct, good quality stuff) is one of the most effective measures the owner/operator can take.

Nick

[rlubikey]

I have the answer - convert to PI. So long as you have knackered valves in the fuel lines to the injectors, you'll have great oil pressure by the time the engine fires!

Seriously, I've converted to the smallest double-valve Mann and I still get significant drain back over night. (Spin-on 90' adaptor, with a TR6 engine mount on the near-side to jack the engine up a little so the oil filter can sit about 30' below horizontal, missing both pressure relief valve and chassis.)

Triumph never expected the cars to last much longer than 10-years. And in the case of stroking the 4- and 6-cylinders to 1500 and 2500, I suspect the Leyland Cost Engineers leant on them to do a cheap job! With regular oil changes the engines were good for 100k-miles +, but they never got the servicing by the 2nd or 3rd owner back in the 70's. And nowadays with old original parts and deteriorating pattern parts, our cars need all the help they can get. If you want to address the problem, it seems to me you could:-

1) Inhibit the ignition circuit until you get some oil pressure - it would be easy to add a relay to inhibit only during cranking, or

2) Pre-charge the oil circuit before cranking. Marcus did a pressure-vessel design some time back. Alternatively, you could have a little electric oil pump from the sump drain plug to the oil gallery - anyone done that?

Just some ideas.

Cheers, Richard

[daverclasper]

1 hour ago, rlubikey said:

1) Inhibit the ignition circuit until you get some oil pressure - it would be easy to add a relay to inhibit only during cranking, or

Don't use chock until you have oil pressure.

Wouldn't either of these stress the starter/wear the ring gear?.

My Vitesse has good oil pressure (according to the gauge) and has stayed the same for past 12,000 miles, though will rattle for a second or so even after being parked up for only a few hours (has a spin on conversion).

Maybe not the end of the world, as one experienced, school of thought is, "they've been doing it for years, why worry now".

Dave   

[Paul H]

Putting the accessibility of the spin off filter aside which one is best for the engine . Spin off or original 

Paul 

[Guppy916]

4 hours ago, Nick Jones said:

They vary in effectiveness from unit to unit and some makes have a better success rates than others.  They don't call Fram the "orange can of death" for nothing.

Okay Nick i'll delete that from my part list

[Clive]

In all honesty.... I would go for filter quality. But as noted, you can get a 3/4 thread spin-on filter anywhere, even halfords on a saturday afternoon. Wheras the choice of original type filters is probably dismal with the dreadful "classic gold" being the one carried by suppliers. Vitesse owners may be better off as I think that is shared with the TR5/6, wheras GT6 is unique.

[daverclasper]

1 hour ago, clive said:

GT6 is unique.

Hi Clive. Were you being ironic?, or is there difference with GT6?.

Dave 

[GT6M]

I have read the thread, and no where does it say that yer noises stopped,

I got my convertor and filter from the club shop. Later I bought 4 filters as 4 have the same postage as one. The installation sits at an angle of around 45 degrees and it doesn't drain back, even after a winter lay off.  A lot of worry about drain back, but the engines were designed with it and the only thing really wrong is the dreadful clatter. I wonder if a short filter is as efficient/effective as a longer one? 

Doug

 

Pray tell me where ye say that the engine noses stopped,, cant see it in the re read thread ye said re read,!!!

 

And this bit,

The installation sits at an angle of around 45 degrees and it doesn't drain back, even after a winter lay off

 

A winter layoff, and yet still oil int engine oil system,.

 

Errr, I,ll say noooooo way , as others have said, an thee,s folk are in the no, some quite  alott so too.

 

I would love, and im sure others would too as weel,

just how was the T engines made t,run wid nee oil,

 

Never ever seen that written any where,

never even heard it befoer noo

pray tell which engineer  or so called engineer,or so called specialist, said such a ridiculous thing

 

the omly sure way t,stop the oil delay after a few days or week is the thingy I got fitted,

and which I med a few others for others cars,

some med em them selves,

40+ PSI after 4-6 secs whenst switched on,  wid engine  NOT running,

 

M

 

 

 

[dougbgt6]

M,

Sorry don't understand this.

24 minutes ago, GT6M said:

A winter layoff, and yet still oil int engine oil system,.

 

Errr, I,ll say noooooo way , as others have said, an thee,s folk are in the no, some quite  alott so too.

You seem to have got hold of the wrong end of the stick, at no point have I said the engines were designed to run without oil. We are discussing the death rattle at start up. They came out the factory with it, they were designed with it, probably not deliberately, but the standard engines have death rattle AT START UP. 

Yes, at no point did I say "And the noise stopped" But the inference is there and obvious.

Doug

 

[Guppy916]

44 minutes ago, GT6M said:

the omly sure way t,stop the oil delay after a few days or week is the thingy I got fitted,

and which I med a few others for others cars,

some med em them selves,

40+ PSI after 4-6 secs whenst switched on,  wid engine  NOT running,

well don't keep us all in suspense what did you do

 

[Clive]

3 hours ago, daverclasper said:

Hi Clive. Were you being ironic?, or is there difference with GT6?.

Dave 

GT6 uses a "shorter" filter than the vitesse. As in the replaceable element and metal bowl are shorter.

[GT6M]

10 hours ago, Guppy916 said:

well don't keep us all in suspense what did you do

Did ye read, or look at second link  of the 2 that  i bunged up,

its on thea, last posting

 

if ye go this route, then it can be med for 5-8£ ,  if ye got the bits int shed

IF ye doo it yer self, only cost is a valve,

 

ne bits at all, meb,e 40£

 

buy a ready med,n, then they sell for 400£ plus

M

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[Colin Lindsay]

9 hours ago, GT6M said:

Did ye read, or look at second link  of the 2 that  i bunged up,

its on thea, last posting

 

That first filter is close to what I run my GT6 on (WIX WL7213); the second one is for a Smart ForTwo, the reason it's so small is that if they used a normal sized filter, the passenger can't get in.

With some filters, in order to get them upright you can pre-fit them to the adaptor, then screw the entire unit into place; there's not enough room to have the adaptor pointing downwards and then screw the filter on.

[Guppy916]

Thanks Marcus

[Pete Lewis]

If start up knock while you wait a few seconds for the oil to build is so important and many get paranoid about it

if its such a problem it makes you wonder why the engines in a majority of cars  have lasted all these years. ???

Pete

[johny]

It does seem though Pete that the bearing shells can have quite a short life like 40k for big ends and 70k for mains. Now this is probably down to a few factors but one of them could be start up oil starvation.....

[Pete Lewis]

think the only one to suffer shorter  big end wear is the longer  stroked 1500  if i only got 40k out of any of the triumphs ive had i would be spitting blood

if you get drain back knock on a modern the tolerances are much tighter and you cant here it..  who worries ??

sorry  theres too many myths around ,       

its not as if there is no lubrication all the journals have oil in , just not up to pressure , its a classic,   respect it on fire up then drive like you stole it or tootle to the shops 

but do sleep easy about drain back its not a engine killer , 

Pete

 

[poppyman]

1 hour ago, Pete Lewis said:

think the only one to suffer shorter  big end wear is the longer  stroked 1500  if i only got 40k out of any of the triumphs ive had i would be spitting blood

if you get drain back knock on a modern the tolerances are much tighter and you cant here it..  who worries ??

sorry  theres too many myths around ,       

its not as if there is no lubrication all the journals have oil in , just not up to pressure , its a classic,   respect it on fire up then drive like you stole it or tootle to the shops 

but do sleep easy about drain back its not a engine killer , 

Pete

 

You are right with your comments Pete. Main cause of engine wear is not enough oil changes or using crap oil. That's my theory anyway  

Tony.

[johny]

6 hours ago, johny said:

It does seem though Pete that the bearing shells can have quite a short life like 40k for big ends and 70k for mains. Now this is probably down to a few factors but one of them could be start up oil starvation.....

I read this bearing change recommendation (might have been 50k for bigends) somewhere as a way to get very high miles out of a crank and it corresponds to what I found in my engine. I could have run it longer but at the risk of suffering a failure and damaging the crank.....

[Pete Lewis]

Whilst at a local mot they had a Corsa in with engine management had cut the engine , no oil on dipstick, , sump off revealed 

It full,of black solid cheese, they had not dropped a shell  , owner had the car 6 yrs and never serviced anything

How it ran at all   ????   ?..   the engine will need physical cleaning , and heck knows the bearing state,  know idea if it knocked 

There was no liquid oil in the sump,   so poor oil is a big factor in engine life.  

You would not believe the thing had run up,till the ecu blew the whistle

Pete

[Guppy916]

Pete I hope you can supply us with couple of updates on this engine,

It makes me wonder are there any difference's between our classic end's and main shells,

and todays modern shells, the Corsa engine must have been knocking like hell, Pete check the radio volume setting if it's wound up full the engine was knocking if it's low down perhaps the driver is a bit deaf

onto our filter thread what about the Mann W85 for our GT6's, i can't find a K & N one yet, still looking

[Colin Lindsay]

HP3001 or HP1010 are the only K&N models that look even close to ours, but they're not compact, and I haven't checked the thread size yet.

I'll be  in a couple of Autofactors come Monday and will ask them if they have any in stock; I have a small adaptor screw I can take with me to check (Saves walking in with the engine under one arm.) They may have to order one in, which defeats the purpose of checking first.

[poppyman]

3 hours ago, Pete Lewis said:

Whilst at a local mot they had a Corsa in with engine management had cut the engine , no oil on dipstick, , sump off revealed 

It full,of black solid cheese, they had not dropped a shell  , owner had the car 6 yrs and never serviced anything

How it ran at all   ????   ?..   the engine will need physical cleaning , and heck knows the bearing state,  know idea if it knocked 

There was no liquid oil in the sump,   so poor oil is a big factor in engine life.  

You would not believe the thing had run up,till the ecu blew the whistle

Pete

Vauxhall engines suffer badly with this problem because they use an expensive (low ash i think they call it) oil, so people think oh i wont bother, or just use a cheap grade. The 12 valve engine was especially bad.

Tony.

[dave.vitesse]

I got 125K from new out of a 1300 large crank engine. I changed the oil and filter every 3K. Bores were OK, just the bearings were worn out. Unipart oil filter back then.

It was a gutless engine, didn't pull or rev, when compared with the small crank. I reckon that was one of the reasons it lasted so long, Low stress!

Dave