Andyone Posted February 16, 2021 Report Share Posted February 16, 2021 Until electric matches a diesel for range ie 450 miles and there is a good changing network needed until range is extended then not = big waste of money I will be sticking to fossil fuel along with those running business fleets as people get paid to travel not wait in a queue while waiting for the car to charge. This presumes the national grid can supply enough energy in the first place! I think petrol will be around longer than 25 years. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger K Posted February 16, 2021 Report Share Posted February 16, 2021 I have a 2.0 petrol Skodiak as a daily driver, don't like SUVs in general but it has to be able to tow a loaded car trailer. Electric is a complete red herring in my view - just look at the online power generation sites to see how much electricity is 'green', and that's before we get on to manufacturing, battery life, mining exotic metals etc. I also resent being told I'm destroying the planet by the generation who consume more energy than any other, past or present. How many devices per person, charging every night?? I am Heritage Manager for the FBHVC, and spend time in committees discussing a lot of this. I had an online meeting yesterday as part of the Mobile Heritage Advisory group of the Heritage Alliance - I am doing all I can to try to keep this hobby alive. I have to - I have more money invested in the contents of the garage than in the house! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted February 16, 2021 Report Share Posted February 16, 2021 3 hours ago, clive said: No, China can make fantastic quality stuff. It is just that the trade "know" what Triumph owners are like, so tend to spec a lower priced specification. Of course they can but for the quantities of our spares theyre going to sell its prohibitively expensive to set up a high quality production system. Our bits are made by companies that specialise in knocking up whatever you want in small quantities and probably in a very labour intensive way - it wouldnt surprise me if some stuff isnt put together in peoples homes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Lindsay Posted February 16, 2021 Report Share Posted February 16, 2021 1 hour ago, clive said: The thing is, I don't see it as petrol/diesel car owners all changing to buy electric. I think that is unrealistic, and so we may see the rise of the driverless car ONCE they manage to get them to work properly. And that will be the beginning of the end of private car ownership. This pandemic will have a lasting effect on transport with more people working from home. Anyway, I have every intention of using plenty of petrol as long as it is viable. And do as many miles as possible. Good man, and many miles may you see! I think we're safe for years yet, until they make a completely foolproof driverless car (which with the current attitudes of those who use the roads, but aren't drivers, is going to mean a lot of obstacles to overcome) they can't make it compulsory. We have rights too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain T Posted February 16, 2021 Report Share Posted February 16, 2021 7 minutes ago, Colin Lindsay said: We have rights too! Errrm, in certain countries unfortunately NO! I hope they don't get driverless or driver assisted cars sorted......I like moaning at all the idiots on the road! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Lindsay Posted February 16, 2021 Report Share Posted February 16, 2021 25 minutes ago, Iain T said: Errrm, in certain countries unfortunately NO! Thankfully that doesn't concern me, and since Brexit, no matter how many BMWs and Audis are all-singing all-dancing and amazingly wonderful, they can't make rules to force us to drive them... ...but just think... with a driverless car, you could use both hands to make rude gestures at cyclists... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted February 16, 2021 Report Share Posted February 16, 2021 1 hour ago, Colin Lindsay said: Thankfully that doesn't concern me, and since Brexit, no matter how many BMWs and Audis are all-singing all-dancing and amazingly wonderful, they can't make rules to force us to drive them... ...but just think... with a driverless car, you could use both hands to make rude gestures at cyclists... But Boris can 🙊 The whole idea of 100% electric cars is going to bite back very soon. No electricity grids can cope, there is hardly any spare capacity now in winter. Here there are incentives to buy electric or hybrids I strongly suspect the people who buy hybrids drive most of their time on non electric. In my case in a couple of hundred metres I'm out of the village and on national roads, no way am I going to drive at 50 Kph. Arriving at my local town, 12 kms away I would do maybe 1 km before parking. Tomorrow We go for a medical check up and again will only be in a 50Kph zone for maximum 5 kms. Distance each way just short of 40 Kms, On return I'd be thinking of putting it on charge ready for the next day out... Full electric will allow higher road speeds but still limited range. A few days ago I say a post on FB about electric buses in Reims, I think and Berlin(?) where they had to be taken off the road and replaced by good old diesels - Reason? Cold weather and electric batteries don't tend to get along well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AidanT Posted February 16, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2021 no ones mentioned hydrogen yet - to me it has to be the way - I know its difficult to make Now but its gotta be the way! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain T Posted February 16, 2021 Report Share Posted February 16, 2021 8 minutes ago, AidanT said: no ones mentioned hydrogen yet - to me it has to be the way +1 for me. The technical issues are there to be solved given the correct incentives. Perhaps a mix of battery and hydrogen cell cars is the way to go but battery only no! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NonMember Posted February 16, 2021 Report Share Posted February 16, 2021 3 hours ago, Roger K said: Electric is a complete red herring in my view - just look at the online power generation sites to see how much electricity is 'green', and that's before we get on to manufacturing, battery life, mining exotic metals etc. I also resent being told I'm destroying the planet by the generation who consume more energy than any other, past or present. How many devices per person, charging every night?? I think you need to present your research and maths before making those assertions. Most electricity - even the "not green" stuff - is more green than petrol or diesel cars The energy consumption of the devices you refer to is utterly, totally insignificant. Not even in the relevant order of magnitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglefire Posted February 16, 2021 Report Share Posted February 16, 2021 4 hours ago, Andyone said: diesel for range ie 450 miles Blimey - my old Disco would do that on a good day - I expect at least 600 from a tank of diesel! I drove from Folkstone to south of Munich in 2019 on a single tank of juice! Realistically electric has to be able to charge to 80% in about 30minutes and have a range of about 200/300 miles to be viable for me. Nothing I can think of does that, that is affordable and is big enough to carry all the crap I carry sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglefire Posted February 16, 2021 Report Share Posted February 16, 2021 2 hours ago, Chris A said: The whole idea of 100% electric cars is going to bite back very soon. No electricity grids can cope, there is hardly any spare capacity now in winter Yes there is. Current demand as I speak in the UK is 42GW G. B. National Grid status (templar.co.uk) There is at least 10GW available at the moment through gas turbines and Nuclear - wind is providing nearly 25% of the demand at the moment. 2 hours ago, AidanT said: no ones mentioned hydrogen yet - to me it has to be the way - I know its difficult to make Now but its gotta be the way! No it really isn't. Two main ways of getting it. Lots of steam or lots of electricity. You simply can't break the laws of physics. At best its 50% efficient. With no real idea of how to improve it. The real solution is nuclear. Small nuclear reactors in our cars. Little suns. But a long long way off yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglefire Posted February 16, 2021 Report Share Posted February 16, 2021 Oh and I have to say I'm not a great fan of batteries either - not convinced the production and mining of all the stuff needed is ethical or safe. let alone environmental cost. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyone Posted February 16, 2021 Report Share Posted February 16, 2021 1 hour ago, Iain T said: +1 for me. The technical issues are there to be solved given the correct incentives. Perhaps a mix of battery and hydrogen cell cars is the way to go but battery only no! Needs lots of electricity which we don't have. Nuclear yes but there's too many NIMBI's to ever have enough built. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger K Posted February 16, 2021 Report Share Posted February 16, 2021 59 minutes ago, NonMember said: I think you need to present your research and maths before making those assertions. Most electricity - even the "not green" stuff - is more green than petrol or diesel cars The energy consumption of the devices you refer to is utterly, totally insignificant. Not even in the relevant order of magnitude. I'm talking about how much of our electricity is 'green'. Looking at today's figures, 37% of our electricity has come from gas, 12% from nuclear and just 24% from wind - no solar. When a supply company tells you they supply 'green energy', given that it all comes via the National Grid, I don't see how they can state that with any certainty. https://gridwatch.co.uk Yes, the consumption of those devices is tiny. But there are an awful lot of them.... https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200305-why-your-internet-habits-are-not-as-clean-as-you-think ...and this is interesting: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Lindsay Posted February 16, 2021 Report Share Posted February 16, 2021 30 minutes ago, Anglefire said: The real solution is nuclear. Small nuclear reactors in our cars. Little suns. But a long long way off yet. That would be funny. Everytime there's a collision you wipe out half of a county and you can't get back into the car for 20,000 years... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglefire Posted February 16, 2021 Report Share Posted February 16, 2021 1 hour ago, Colin Lindsay said: That would be funny. Everytime there's a collision you wipe out half of a county and you can't get back into the car for 20,000 years... Actually as I understand it, they shouldn’t do that. But then I ain’t by any means close to being an expert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteH Posted February 16, 2021 Report Share Posted February 16, 2021 A few years back, the worlds "media" was having a meltdown, the reason?. one of the expired satelites was due to return to earth. Not that common but it has hapened before, so what was the issue.? Well it hapened to be one of the first generation, with a small Nuclear Generator. As I remember it was a bit of a non event. "They" did tests and no residual nuclear evidence was located. It burned completely on re-entry. The contaiments are so strong they can be Hit by a train at full chat and survive. As for Hydrogen, the biggest issue is more likely the fact that everytime anyone suggest it. The fate of the Hindenurg is brought up!. My personal problem being that I have a Large Motorhome. There is no way that it could become electric, putting the necessary mass of batteries in one would take it into HGV territory, and out of the hands of anyone without a "Class 2" licence. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Lindsay Posted February 16, 2021 Report Share Posted February 16, 2021 6 minutes ago, PeteH said: As for Hydrogen, the biggest issue is more likely the fact that everytime anyone suggest it. The fate of the Hindenurg is brought up!. To be fair, the Hindenburg was built in 1926 - 31; I don't think we'll be using the same technology in cars in 2021. Having said that perhaps we should use helium, as a safer option... Oh, the humanity.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteH Posted February 16, 2021 Report Share Posted February 16, 2021 7 minutes ago, Colin Lindsay said: To be fair, the Hindenburg was built in 1926 - 31; I don't think we'll be using the same technology in cars in 2021. Having said that perhaps we should use helium, as a safer option... Oh, the humanity.... Well, Worse case scenario. We`ll all sound like Donald -----------------Duck!. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NonMember Posted February 16, 2021 Report Share Posted February 16, 2021 2 hours ago, Roger K said: Yes, the consumption of those devices is tiny. But there are an awful lot of them.... https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200305-why-your-internet-habits-are-not-as-clean-as-you-think Unfortunately all the sources they quote have been thoroughly debunked. They used up to date figures for bandwidth usage, doubled them for "future proofing", then coupled them with 1980s figures for energy cost per megabyte. It's at least a factor of ten out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted February 17, 2021 Report Share Posted February 17, 2021 14 hours ago, Roger K said: .and this is interesting: Think harry puts a good spin on the foibles of electric makes simple sense its a must have we dont need drip fed with misconstrued facts and costs need a calm head on before the lemmings jump Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted February 17, 2021 Report Share Posted February 17, 2021 The Harry’s Garage piece is very interesting and resonates with me. I have run the same Audi TDi as a daily driver for the last 18 years. Now 24 years old, it comes from that sweet spot in German car production before they forgot how to build engines that don’t self destruct just after the warranty expires and before they got too complex to keep working indefinitely and be worth repairing if any part did stop working. Dunno what “euro” class it is but it’s being banned from an increasing number of cities. The irony is that in planetary climate terms, it’s at least as good as many contemporary vehicles as it regularly manages 50+ mpg (low CO2 emissions) and has only needed building once in 24 years and many, many miles so represents excellent value in embedded carbon terms. I’ll admit that things are less rosy in the particulates department (it’s not called the Soot Monster for nothing), though since certain emissions control devices have failed and been bypassed, it’s better by a couple of orders of magnitude and picked up a few mpg as well. EGR is evil in diesels. No doubt this means the NOx is even worse, but as nobody tests that and I never drive in cities if I can possibly avoid it, I don’t worry. The other irony is my slightly younger petrol powered “winter banger” A8 is still allowed in cities even though it’s fairly catastrophic in planetary climate terms. As a family, we could make decent use use of one EV, but would need at least one “real car” too. I have looked at the possibility of buying an EV, or even building one, but so far the economics just don’t work. Doesn’t help that I’m used having a range of almost 900 miles and a 5 minute “recharge” with the TDI. On that note, a friend has just returned a Tesla model S with some relief at the end of a 4 year lease. Apart from fairly significant reliability issues and dire service from the dealer network, he also notes a “serious decline in exclusivity”, the practical upshot of which is that when he first got the car, he could always be assured of a full-rate charge at any Tesla station he rocked up to. In more recent times, increasing numbers has meant queues and reduced charge rates and that plays Merry hell with journey times. Harry raises a great point comparing home heating and transport. The recent cold snap and people (me included) working from home has resulted in the use of more than 500L of kerosene since the end of November. Forget EVs, I should be buying a heat pump for the house! Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NonMember Posted February 17, 2021 Report Share Posted February 17, 2021 20 minutes ago, Nick Jones said: The recent cold snap and people (me included) working from home has resulted in the use of more than 500L of kerosene since the end of November. Forget EVs, I should be buying a heat pump for the house! I can't say we've noticed that much of an increase in heating oil consumption but then our "normal year" rate is quite a bit worse than yours. The heat pump would definitely be a good idea as I reckon even at my worst commute point a couple of years back I was using only a quarter as much petrol (between four cars!) as we do heating oil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted February 17, 2021 Report Share Posted February 17, 2021 Yeah, the heating oil is offset by my not having bought any road fuel yet this year (really!), but I dare not look at the state of my electric bill. Solar panels haven’t been doing at all well either as the sun has mostly been hiding..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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