Rocker feed kit

[Bfg]

If I might..  I note some confusion here because of the repeated reference to 'flow ' of oil, whereas the real issue in our older engines is one of oil 'pressure''.  This is why our cars have an oil pressure warning light and often a gauge too ..and not a flow meter.

Plain bearings, including your big-end-shells, rely on the engine-oil being forced into the tiny tolerances between a loaded bearing and its journal. That pressure needs to be continuous, as this maintains the film-of-oil which the plain bearing rides on.  Plain bearings, in effective, hydroplane on the oil.

The excessive capacity of the pump, is regulated within the lubrication system by its pressure-relief-valve (note again pressure ..not flow) and that accommodates, to a reasonable degree, wear in any of the plain bearings.  As a bearing, or bearings, wears then the to-journal tolerances increase and whole system's pressure is lost, so the pressure-relief-valve operates to open less ..thereby maintaining the designed oil-pressure throughout the whole lubrication system.

Conversely ; ball, needle and roller bearings do not require their oil to be under any great pressure, in fact most are lubricated by the constancy of splash within the crankcases or gearbox. Often that splash is guided (but not under pressure) to dribble down on top of bearings. In other places there may be a machined scroll to proactively draw oil in to a plain bearing.  Again these simply require a steady flow of oil. 

Altogether a very low pressure lubrication system is very much more reliable ..because if one bearing is worn (or fails) then the others do not suffer oil starvation ..they are still getting splashed.  And even when an engine is first started from cold - there is usually some oil sitting inbetween the rollers, even though oil pressure in the system is, at that instant, very low.  

An oil pump is still required to draw the engine-oil through filters and then to take it to high points and very hot places within an engine (..to avoid all the oil draining down to the sump) and for cooling of those hot spots.  And sometimes bearing surfaces are supplied with a jet of oil (..for example the camshaft lobes) but that again requires pressure, which the designers prefer to avoid.  It's better then to have the camshaft lobes dipping into their own trough of oil.  Other places require a jet of oil to cool a particular hot spot.  But again this is a matter of much increased flow of oil over those places.  In this design, the oil level is carefully monitored and low-on-oil warning lights are in place to advise the driver.   

In practice, an engine's lubrication system is designed with both high pressure and low pressure / high flow.  High pressure to the big end shells, and high flow to camshafts and with a lot of splash to other bearing and friction surfaces. If the oil pressure is contained within a few parts, such as the crankshaft, and its design avoids going through gasket faces ..then the engine is likely to be oil tight.    

How does this relate to 50-year-old Triumph engines ?  Well firstly it is necessary to know that the engine's plain bearing require pressure, and as importantly that the pressure is within a (restricted by design / semi-closed) lubrication system.  Take away any part of that system and the pressure (within the whole lubrication circuit) will be reduced. That is unless the feed to those ares is otherwise restricted or blocked off.  

Will the replaced mechanical parts need alternative lubrication ? ..yes if the oil path has been blocked off to retain pressure throughout the rest of the system, or else is not specifically directed at any new part needing lubrication, then an external oil route (restricted by bore size or jet, to preserve the oil pump's pressure) might used to provide the necessary constant-flow of lubricant to those parts.  It is however a bold move to make such changes, unless for racing tenths-of-a-second-per-lap is the overriding criteria, as it risks greater damage to other parts. Arguably reliability wins races as much as a quickest time.

Hope that helps,

Pete

 

 

[johny]

fraid its got to be pressure AND flow in plain bearings. Obviously both have limits but without sufficient flow the bearing overheats and, especially with white metal, this can lead to failure☹️ 

[Pete Lewis]

and Triumph only have one specification  40 - 60 psi at 2000rpm for all their   OHV 4 and 6 cyl  engines 

does not  quote oil or temperatures but i would expect its in a normal running temperature /condition with the handbook oil as specified 

Pete

 

 

[johny]

Wow thats quite brave Mathew! Some are now even going for 20w60 in an attempt to keep oil pressure up as high as possible on hot days in traffic....

[JohnD]

Without wanting to cause a spat with the BFG (especially NOT with a BFG!), there must be flow through the bearings.   Pressure is what enables that flow.   A totally blocked pump can register pressure in the abscence of any flow at all!   And a splash lubricated bearing has no pressure feeding it!

Maybe quibbling, if the oil gets there al will be well.

 

Iain T, be a pal and link to your other thread for the source of the needle valve, please?  There rre hundreds available!

John

[Pete Lewis]

i would feel a 10w is a bit skinny in a rattling good triumph 

the base std is 20/50  and has been for years  and within that there are wildly varying oil specifications 

guess you get what you pay for   but with rockers and plenty of rubbing a good ZZd  is worthwhile 

Pete

[Chris A]

I'm part of the 20/50 with plenty of ZDDP school of thought.

I can't put my hand on it at present but I did have a table that listed the various ratings of oil and their ZDDP levels with the dates of introduction and ages of cars they were used on.

[Chris A]

Seek and ye shall find . . .

Zinc (ZDDP) – What’s your ppm level ??

Traditional old style petrol classic car engines (1950 through to 1990) will by now have many years and miles under their pistons, but their care is just as important as modern day units; perhaps even more so. What may be good oil for one type of engine could be an anathema for another. So what do classic car engines need from an oil that is suitable for their longevity and protection ??

One of the key components is the zinc level in oil and this is defined as “parts per million (ppm)” The zinc element is actually contained within a compound called Zinkdialkyldithiophosphate (ZDDP) and its inclusion is a critical factor for old style engines. Through the decades the level of ZDDP has continued to decrease and this is due to modern catalytic convertors and far more efficient engine design. Modern “cats” cannot deal or survive with the phosphorus that is also contained within ZDDP; due to this modern car manufacturers have progressively required a reduction of this additive in oil. That’s understandable. However, where does that leave a classic car owner in deciding what oil to choose for their classic car in the 21st Century ??

It’s an interesting question and a far from a straight forward topic.

So what does ZDDP bring to the oil party ?? Firstly we need to look at why it is an important factor. The majority of classic car owners will have tappet followers that are “flat-bottomed”, that is to say the bottom surface is flat to the naked eye. These followers have an extremely tough life; probably only second to cylinder head valves. As the camshaft turns, each lobe per revolution makes contact with the followers. The shape of the lobe is designed so that at its peak revolution it will push the follower up which then pushes the tappet rod up and opens the valve in the cylinder head, via the rocker. The valve is seated excessively tight by single or double springs to form a gas tight seal within the cylinder head combustion chamber.

So as you can see the force placed upon the bottom of the cam follower is significant to say the least. This “super-pressure” contact causes friction and as we know friction causes component wear. This is where ZDDP plays its part. Zinc is a polar molecule, so it is attracted to steel surfaces. Under high heat and extreme load (pressure), the Zinc reacts with the steel surface and creates a phosphate glass film that protects the steel surface by forming a sacrificial layer that covers the peaks and fills in any indents on the steel surface. Basically your flat bottomed follower, to the naked eye, really does become 99.9% flat and smooth. By forming this protective layer the cam lobes and flat bottomed followers are heavily protected against friction wear; remember friction wear can never be eliminated but much can be done to slow the process down. You can see in the photo, a worn follower on the left and a serviceable one on the right.

So ideally to get the best protection an oil needs a high ZDDP, but modern oils of today do not contain this but rather “other additives” which oil manufactures keep close to their chest as it’s all about marketing and protecting their “recipe! !! That is little or no comfort for the classic car owner who relies on a decent multigrade mineral oil with a generous level of ZDDP contained therein.

Of significance, many oils that say “classic car oil” do not actually contain enough ZDDP or worse still a mere trace. So, what level of this additive does a classic car owner require to feel confident that the oil in their car engine is not only lubricating but also protecting those parts under extreme pressure. Without a doubt an owner should be looking for an oil that contains a minimum of 1000ppm of ZDDP and to a maximum of 1600ppm. In fact an oil containing in excess of 1600ppm may cause more harm than good; such high levels of ZDDP are specifically manufactured for race level engines and it is not an oil that can be purchased off the shelf. Some classic car oils only contain 800ppm and these oils are insufficient to fully protect metallic components. Oils such as Halfords Classic 20W/50, Comma Classic 20W/50 and Castrol XL 20W/50 are below the 1000ppm level and contain only 800ppm. Sorry to give you that bad news, but the price of those oils may provide a clue !! So what oils provide in excess of 1000ppm ?? Well, oils such as Penrite, Millers and Morris as these companies specifically manufacture their oil to be suitable for classic cars and deliver a high zinc content.

What is odd or perhaps not when you look at it, is that companies such as Penrite and Millers are more than happy to quote their ZDDP levels; whereas to get Castrol or Halfords to divulge their content is another matter entirely. Their corporate stock phrase will be that there is sufficient additives to meet the required standard. So what is the required standard and again another interesting point. You recall earlier that as engine technology has improved over the years the requirement for ZDDP has reduced to the point that it is no longer added in that pure form. Additionally, modern oils are now either semi of fully synthetic with ever decreasing viscosity levels and higher levels of detergent – that is because modern petrol engines are cleaner and their metallic components are under less stress compared to cars from the 50s through to the 90’s.

In fact for oil manufacturers to make multigrade mineral oils with a high level or any level of ZDDP costs money and what’s the point in that when classic cars make up a tiny percentage of cars on the road. Additionally, as cars become mechanically more efficient the “make-up” of the oil must correlate with those changes. The internationally recognized index for oils is the API (American Petroleum Index) and this code can be seen on all oils from multigrade to fully synthetic. I have provided a snap shot as to the current ongoing list of oils:

Category

 

Status

Comments

SM

 

Current

For 2010 and older automotive engines

SL

 

Current

For 2004 and older automotive engines

SJ

 

Current

For 2001 and older automotive engines

SH

 

Obsolete

For 1996 and older automotive engines

 

The index started at SA which covered engines built after 1930 and contained no additives at all. As you will have noted, when oils are improved a new category is added (not all A-Z letters are used); most of these improvements are with additives and the general “make-up” of the oil. Currently the API stands at SN.

For owners of classic cars ranging from the 1950’s to the mid-90’s the highest API code you should be putting in your engine is SL (up to year 2004). Higher than that the level of ZDDP becomes seriously depleted or even absent and modern additives are included to deal with corresponding modern engines. These modern day additives will not contain the “care products” that your classic car engine requires. The API codes are found on the oil container, so have a look at your current oil container and see where your oil is pitched. Ideally it should either be SG, SH, SJ or SL; anything higher or lower will not be suitable and may fail to protect component wear within the engine – not just areas that require high ZDDP levels as identified earlier in the article.

I popped in to my local Halfords the other day to check what their 20W/50 classic car oil is rated at; on the container it shows SE which is way down the scale of protection. In fact the API index throws a caution in with that grade stating the oil is unsuitable for vehicles built after 1979. Now although that oil will cover most classic cars prior to that year its level of protection is low. Yes it lubricates but its actual long term critical component protection is questionable. It’s green in colour and of course is identical to Comma 20W/50 oil; where the same statement above applies. The Halfords tin listed various additives – nothing specific but certainly no clue as to the ZDDP level, same applies with Comma oil. Without a doubt you get what you pay for or can afford.

Conversely Millers Classic 20W/50 is high in ZDDP and the fact is actually stated on the container. Looking at their website technical section it shows the level to be 1100ppm and the oil is rated as SJ on the API index. Excellent news !! Another example is Penrite Classic 20W/50, again the container shouts out high zinc level and this oil is rated at SL. So Millers and Penrite are delivering exactly what you should be looking for in a classic car oil and is certainly the quality of oil you should have in your engine.

It is possible to buy ZDDP in a bottle and add that to your engine oil. However there is a lot of controversy about this and it boils down to one thing. When oil is manufactured all the additives are gradually mixed throughout the process which ensures that they blend properly with the oil and equally important that the additive is in an “active state” to react to the operating conditions of the engine. Bearing in mind the process that ZDDP works under to achieve protection, there is some concern that the “over the counter” additive may not be as effective compared to its application and inclusion during oil manufacturing.

In October 2016, I attended the Restoration Show at Stoneleigh Park and took the opportunity to speak with Guy Lachlan, who had a trade stall at the show. He is the MD of Classic Oils, located in Bicester Oxfordshire (01869.227.062) www.classic-oils.net His company keeps a wide selection of all types of motoring oils for varied automotive applications. We spoke at length about the ZDDP content in engine oils of today and I was pleased to hear that the company is now producing a 20W/50 engine oil that ticks all the boxes that I have spoken of; for example the ZDDP content is 1300ppm !! Better still the 5L container (see photo) is pitched at a very competitive price, currently £16.95 plus postage, the oil can be viewed via www.classic-oils.net/Classic-Oils-Heritage-20W50. Without a doubt this is an oil I will be using in my two classic cars; excellent price and all the qualities that I want from an oil to protect my engines.

I am a big fan of Millers and Penrite oils, but with the astronomical increase in Millers prices due to unnecessary re-branding (hideous own goal) and the fact that the Penrite UK factory is closing down shortly, there is a gap in the market which is open for the taking. Without a doubt Guy Lachlan's company has seen this opportunity and has grasped it with his Heritage oil. Additionally, his company has now been appointed the sole UK importer for the Australian based and produced Penrite oil, since the closure of the UK factory towards the end of 2017.

Finally, one rule that should always be followed – change your oil & filter every year and certainly with mileage no greater than 3K to 4K between the changes; whatever oil you may use !!

 

© 2017 – Richard Long / Southern Classics Society.

No reproduction without consent.

 

[Clive]

1 hour ago, johny said:

Wow thats quite brave Mathew! Some are now even going for 20w60 in an attempt to keep oil pressure up as high as possible on hot days in traffic....

Have a look in an original handbook, and all sorts of grades are recommended.

On top of that my local friend has done over 250k in his hearld, and well over 10k in his spitfire. All on straight 30 oil. Neither car is driven hard though.

I think almost any oil will be fine for light use, which is what 90% of our cars get. Start driving hard, and quaity counts. I have tried a classic 20/50, and it is done after a few hundred hard miles. 5k, including a few trackdays, and Mobil 1  0-40 is almost like new. John Kipping, who knows more than almost anybody else about these cars, reckoned Mobil 1 was the very best oil for them, especially 1500s. But then it was 10-40 I think, and as Mathew has found, a Triumph engine may not have good enough tolerances to cope with a 0-40 unless a fresh, top end build. (however, 0-40, 5-40 and 10-40 should all be about the same viscosity when hot)

On teh other hand, I used millers CSS 20-60 in my 1500, and that was an oil that help pressure better than any other I have used. Far superior to the VR1 I had previously used.

But horses for courses, most cars it won't make a jot of difference.

 

 

 

[JohnD]

I tried a modern synthetic, 5W30, I think in one of my Vitesses and the low oil pressure so frightened me (even if it was flowing like a river, BFG!) that I drained it right away and refilleed with 20W50.     The engine survived that single test session with the synthetic, and I've never used it again.

[Iain T]

2 hours ago, JohnD said:

Iain T, be a pal and link to your other thread for the source of the needle valve, please?  There rre hundreds available!

John

John, its in a topic started by Dave Clasper called Tappet Noise on 8th Aug 2020. My pics etc are on page 10. 

My question......how do insert old posts into current text?

Iain

[Colin Lindsay]

3 minutes ago, Iain T said:

John, its in a topic started by Dave Clasper called Tappet Noise on 8th Aug 2020. My pics etc are on page 10. 

My question......how do insert old posts into current text?

Iain

Just go to the old thread, copy the link on the top address bar of your browser, and paste it into the reply box of the current thread; it'll come up like that above.

[Iain T]

15 minutes ago, Colin Lindsay said:

Just go to the old thread, copy the link on the top address bar of your browser, and paste it into the reply box of the current thread; it'll come up like that above.

Thanks Colin, can I now have that in blow by blow Apple speak please? I have a hated MacBook Air

[PeteH]

Ian. I think (on my I-phone) You tap the header and then copy?. Go to the post and open reply Tap/hold on the page and then tap paste?.

If your using a Mouse. Highlight the header and click on copy. Go to post open reply and paste. should work?.

Pete

[johny]

4 hours ago, johny said:

Wow thats quite brave Mathew! Some are now even going for 20w60 in an attempt to keep oil pressure up as high as possible on hot days in traffic....

As Clive says, depends on how hard you drive the car plus I also think limiting the engines temperature with an efficient cooling system will mean you can successfully use a thinner oil...

[DanMi]

recommended oil was straight 20w 10w30 or 20w50. Taken from a 1966 spitfire handbook

 

[Steve P]

I use VR-1 in the Vitesse,always really good pressure,ZDDP is quoted at 1400 PPM.

When i fitted a new 1500 in my Herald,the machine shop recommended Joe Gibbs racing oil from the US,that was only 15/50 but high Zinc.

It`s due a change now and i am inclined to put VR1 in as the Joe Gibbs was 1200 PPM when i checked and seems to go off quicker.

Steve

[Bfg]

 

11 hours ago, JohnD said:

there must be flow through the bearings.   Pressure is what enables that flow.   A totally blocked pump can register pressure in the absence of any flow at all!   And a splash lubricated bearing has no pressure feeding it!

"there must be flow through the bearings" I never said otherwise, as far as I'm aware very few plain bearings are fitted with seals, and so flow is inevitable ..and indeed essential for replenishment with freshly filtered cooler oil, and for the splash lubrication / cooling of adjacent parts.   

And to counter your counter, and to see you.. flow can be a dribble "in the absence any pressure at all " ..save that of gravity.   Or flow may be circulation within a closed reservoir where even gravity is negligible   

A hole which oil pours through would "register flow  in the absence of any pressure  at all!"  ..but what's that got to do with the price of fish ?  And splash lubrication does in fact have considerable inertia, at higher engine speeds, and therefore quite some pressure upon impact   ..but surely such quibbling (what a lovely word !) is out of context with preceding posts regarding the effects of fitting an external oil feed to the rockers - no ?

 

[JohnD]

I'm all for thread drift, but this is extreme!   I'll ask the mods if they would split off this interesting discussion!

[KevinR]

 

[jagnut66]

1 hour ago, JohnD said:

I'm all for thread drift, but this is extreme!   I'll ask the mods if they would split off this interesting discussion!

😄 It did veer a bit 'off topic' didn't it. 😄

For those looking for where it went follow / click on the link in the above post by KevinR.

Best wishes,

Mike.

[Colin Lindsay]

Goes to show there's only so long you can discuss rocker feed kits...

[JohnD]

On 30/11/2021 at 00:35, Bfg said:

 

"there must be flow through the bearings" I never said otherwise, as far as I'm aware very few plain bearings are fitted with seals, and so flow is inevitable ..and indeed essential for replenishment with freshly filtered cooler oil, and for the splash lubrication / cooling of adjacent parts.   

And to counter your counter, and to see you.. flow can be a dribble "in the absence any pressure at all " ..save that of gravity.   Or flow may be circulation within a closed reservoir where even gravity is negligible   

A hole which oil pours through would "register flow  in the absence of any pressure  at all!"  ..but what's that got to do with the price of fish ?  And splash lubrication does in fact have considerable inertia, at higher engine speeds, and therefore quite some pressure upon impact   ..but surely such quibbling (what a lovely word !) is out of context with preceding posts regarding the effects of fitting an external oil feed to the rockers - no ?

 

That fascinating discussion that Kevin has kindly split off, hid your riposte, Bfg!      (Who would be a moderator?   That split off thread has instantly morphed into one on pet feeding, and cats!)

But to return to half-serious matters.     I parry your riposte!  Is a flow so slow as to occur only under gravity, not a dribble, but a quibble?      But there is a pressure, Bfg, the hydraulic head of pressure due to the height of the bearing, and gravity.     And flow within a closed reservoir is possible, as the fluid circulates.     But what causes that circulation?   Any movement requres energy, and the most likely source will be heat, making the fluid that is warmer less dense so that cooler, heavier fluid above displaces it.   In other words, the more dense fluid, under gravity exerts a higher hydraulic pressure!

All completely irrelevant to the rocker feed discussion - but I love a debate!

More flow to your bearings!

JOhn

 

[PeteH]

Ahh!. The flow returns?, Or is it now under pressure?. And what about the leaks?.😁. And the there is the question of Tribology?. 10w-50?. 20-50? High Zinc content?.

Pete

[Pete Lewis]

I'll Say it ...........................i take tablets for the flow  !!!!

pressure would help !!!

Pete