Rocker feed kit

[jagnut66]

Hi, 

I was just buying some windscreen wipers when I noticed this kit. 

What do people think of it / has anyone fitted it?

https://rimmerbros.com/Item--i-GRID007533

Best wishes,

Mike.

[KevinR]

SPAWN OF THE DEVIL - KEEP WELL CLEAR

[KevinR]

Don't believe any of the stuff that the people selling them spout unless that admit that you are likely to starve the main bearings of oil and have far too much oil in the top end of the engine (and without valve stem oil seals it will be drawn down the valve guides and burned)

[jagnut66]

I didn't think I'd seen any fitted to engines I've looked at. 

If the engine needed it and was problematic without this, then it did cross my mind that surely Triumph would have fitted it (or something similar) in the first place.

Any other opinions on this kit?

Best wishes,

Mike.

[PeteH]

I think Kevin may be right?. Any "bleed off" of oil will affect the other parts of the system?.

Though excessive oil consumption could be avoided by fitting suitable valve stem seals?. Not a hard job, can be done without taking the head off? (The rope trick?)

Pete

[NonMember]

1 minute ago, PeteH said:

Though excessive oil consumption could be avoided by fitting suitable valve stem seals?

Perhaps, but not entirely reliably, and why go to that trouble to mask a problem created by a change that wasn't in any way needed (or even beneficial) in the first place?

8 minutes ago, jagnut66 said:

If the engine needed it and was problematic without this, then it did cross my mind that surely Triumph would have fitted it

Triumph designed, developed and thoroughly tested the engine to have a regulated oil supply to the rockers. They actually went to the trouble of putting in a flat on the rear cam journal to do this. It's not just that they "didn't fit this" type of high pressure feed, they deliberately fitted exactly the opposite! What does that tell you about the engine's top end oil needs?

[dougbgt6]

14 minutes ago, PeteH said:

I think Kevin may be right?. Any "bleed off" of oil will affect the other parts of the system

I'm quite certain Kevin is right, we've had other threads on this and the gurus all say the same, "DON'T DO IT!!!"

20 minutes ago, jagnut66 said:

it did cross my mind that surely Triumph would have fitted it (or something similar) in the first place.

And that's the reason why! 

Doug

[PeteH]

18 minutes ago, NonMember said:

Perhaps, but not entirely reliably, and why go to that trouble to mask a problem created by a change that wasn't in any way needed (or even beneficial) in the first place?

I entirely agree, My point being that IF someone was wanting to do it, and I cannot see the need either. The actual job is reasonably simple, we swapped them out on Pinto`s "back when" in around a hour or less. Now Pinto`s did have a sprayer bar, which used to block for a pastime usually due to neglect.

Pete

[Pete Lewis]

sales of this nightmare  "must have"   should be totally banned and outlawed  for good 

even if you fit a 0.5mm restrictor in this devilish nasty it will still pump far more top end oil than the engine requires 

yes the interrupted feed can get blocked by debris blocking the rocker shaft oil holes and the rocker scrolls but face it they have lasted 50 years in many cases 

quite possible they need a refurb after years of hard work  ...........but not a gushing oil supply letting excess oil down the valve guides and the burnt oil clagging up the valve stems

and if you fit stem seals you now are likely to seize a valve due to lack of lube as the clearance and materials are expecting light lubrication from just enough from the original design

Pete 

 

 

 

 

[Steve P]

My tuned 1500 Herald has one,with a restrictor,it has Goodparts roller rockers which need the extra feed.It also has an uprated pump.

I use Valvoline VR 1 oil and so far so good.(and no smoke).

Steve

[Iain T]

I fitted one as I didn't have enough oil to my rockers. I fitted an in line adjustable needle valve to restrict the flow to a slight drip from all rockers. Works a treat totally controllable and solved the problem. 

Iain 

[JohnD]

IanT,

"a slight drip from all rockers" is what the Triumph rocker shaft needs, and what TRiumph designed the oil feed to supply.     If yours was dry before you fitted the external supply, then there was wear in the system, impairing its function.    Could be the metering of the rear camshaft bearing, could be the rocker shaft, could be the rockers themselves.       And with age and neglect (your DPO's, of course!) the rocker shaft, which sees very low velocity flow, silts up.

Yea, Brothers and Sisters!    I amme indeede gladde to see that my message of Salvatione has taken roote!  Hearken unto Brother Kevin, for he preaches from the same pulpit!     The external oil feed is the Gette of Beelzebubbe!  Eschew it, grind it beneath your heel, for it is cursed for alle time!

JOhn The Preacher

[Colin Lindsay]

1 hour ago, JohnD said:

Yea, Brothers and Sisters!    I amme indeede gladde to see that my message of Salvatione has taken roote!  Hearken unto Brother Kevin, for he preaches from the same pulpit!     The external oil feed is the Gette of Beelzebubbe!  Eschew it, grind it beneath your heel, for it is cursed for alle time!

JOhn The Preacher

Tell it like it is, brother!! Amen!

[PeteH]

42 minutes ago, Steve P said:

My tuned 1500 Herald has one,with a restrictor,it has Goodparts roller rockers which need the extra feed.It also has an uprated pump.

I use Valvoline VR 1 oil and so far so good.(and no smoke).

Steve

And thereby hangs the tale?. Roller rockers and an uprated pump, I would be inclined to do the same. But not on an unmodified engine.

[jagnut66]

Interesting stuff. Don't worry I won't be buying one.

Best wishes,

Mike.

[AndyTV8]

I wouldn’t have one anywhere near a car of mine - not even if it were still in its packaging  

....... Andy 

[Pete Lewis]

i have one in the shed . its the best place 

I won a kit in a box of odds and sods  some years back and fitted it to the Vit6 , wow  oil everywhere hence the idea of plugging the banjo bolt first with a 1mm hole 

oil  everywhere     then down to 0.5mm hole     then  get rid of it completely   ....peace returns   to normal  

if you have rollers thats well away from triumphs design  its up tp you but as frequenlty said if you have a feed problem look at the basics first 

before you add the spawn of satan to bypass the problem 

the original design is so bad its only lasted 50 years just correct the actual problem and you get another 50 years of running  That'll do 

Pete

 

[Steve P]

2 hours ago, Pete Lewis said:

if you have rollers thats well away from triumphs design  its up tp you but as frequenlty said if you have a feed problem look at the basics first 

It doesn`t have a feed problem Pete,its extensively upgraded and tuned,the roller rockers need more feed than the original design can supply,hence the addition.

Putting miles on it will tell me if it causes problems but i doubt it will with good oil and regular changes..

Steve

[JohnD]

If you WANT more oil to the rocker shaft, as Pete says you must find the way yourself.     The oil pump has a capacity which exceeds the ability of the galleries to supply, when cold or at very high revs, which is why you have a pressure relief valve that dumps flow back into the sump when the pressure overcomes the simple spring-controlled valve.      Just for discussion, I wonder if that needs to be adjusted as well?     The external supply will draw flow away from the mains, even with your needle valve that is what you want to happen, so should the relief valve have a stronger spring, so that flow is maintianed at a higher level at critical times, cold and high revs?

OR, as the flat on the rear camshaft bearing acts as a pulsing pump to augment the flow from that bearing up into the head, grind another flat??    I suspect that the bearing would be fine, but calculating if an extra flat - or even more! - would be needed is beyond my ability.   If one is enough for ordinary rockers, how much more flow do you need for rollers?

And Steve, where did you get the needle valve?    I've only heard the like of Pete's account, of labouriously fitting various restrictors until one that was more or less correct could be found.      The criterion was the same oil pressure as without the external line.

Keep the Triumph faith!

JOhn

[Pete Lewis]

my only experience was with the TLD fracturing or screw loose units  the club sold for a while till they became  a nightmare 

with move moving parts the need for lube obviously changes to more  oil or higher grade oil or the rollers could fail 

likewise  if the roller rocker  raises the rocker ratio   (  the main reason to fit them )  then more loads are passed to the cam/  followers / pushrods  so better oil is preference  i guess 

Pete

 

[rlubikey]

On 27/11/2021 at 14:57, Steve P said:

My tuned 1500 Herald has one,with a restrictor,it has Goodparts roller rockers which need the extra feed.It also has an uprated pump.

 

On 27/11/2021 at 18:12, PeteH said:

And thereby hangs the tale?. Roller rockers and an uprated pump, I would be inclined to do the same. But not on an unmodified engine.

 

3 hours ago, Pete Lewis said:

likewise  if the roller rocker  raises the rocker ratio   (  the main reason to fit them )  then more loads are passed to the cam/  followers / pushrods  so better oil is preference  i guess 

Yes, when I went for roller rockers, the chap building my engine asked if I wanted a rocker feed kit. I already knew they were generally considered the SPAWN OF THE DEVIL for normal top ends (quite right KevinR). While my roller rockers are a slightly higher ratio, they also have needle bearings. My simple mind says that ball and needle bearings need only a smidge of lube as they are rolling surfaces, while sleeve bearings need somewhat more - a flow of oil in fact - as they would otherwise be rubbing surfaces and subject to wear. Please enlighten me if you have a different view. Of course, your Goodparts roller rockers Steve P may be sleeve bearings in which case your logic stands up to my simple minded thinking.

In any case Jagnut 66, the rocker feed kit does exactly what it says on the tin - it increases the oil flow to the head. But the oil pump is a positive displacement pump so pumps a fixed volume with every revolution. (I'm ignoring back-flow in the pump.) So, as has been said by several people already, you run the risk of starving the crank bearings and increasing wear there. Ask yourself this question - is it easier/cheaper to do a top-end rebuild or a bottom-end rebuild? I know which I'd prefer to do - the top end every time.

Cheers, Richard

[NonMember]

38 minutes ago, rlubikey said:

My simple mind says that ball and needle bearings need only a smidge of lube as they are rolling surfaces, while sleeve bearings need somewhat more - a flow of oil in fact - as they would otherwise be rubbing surfaces and subject to wear. Please enlighten me if you have a different view.

While I can see your logic, I believe it is actually wrong.

A needle or roller bearing is a contact bearing with gaps and needs constant lubrication to replace what gets displaced. This is actually true even of wheel bearings, where the "constant" is achieved by having enough around and nowhere for it to go. Works with grease, not so much with oil.

Sleeve bearings need an oil film but the film is very thin and there's very little clearance, so the film remains for extended time and needs only a minimal replacement flow. Where that's not the case - if the bearing is worn enough to let the oil pressure drop because the film flows out - then the bearing is shot and needs replacing.

[johny]

For lubrication I would have thought 'frictionless' bearings would need the same or more likely less oil flow than the original plain bearing not more! Theres also the cooling requirement as a plain bearing having more friction generates more heat so needs a flow of oil for cooling while for a roller bearing normally just grease is sufficient... 

[Stratton Jimmer]

My sixpot Spit has roller rockers and NO additional oil feed. They seem to be perfectly well lubricated so my vote goes for the NAY sayers.

[Iain T]

My view is if you have for whatever reason a low oil flow to your rockers first off check your oil pressure. If the pressure is ok and you don't want to strip your engine down then fit an oil feeder but with a controllable restricter. The all stainless steel needle valve and adapter I bought are in the Topic I started somewhere in the Forum and were made in the UK! Playing about with pin hole restricters just isn't controllable enough. I had virtually no flow to my front rockers even though I had new ones reamed to suit a new shaft and a new billet cam with notch from Newmans. With an unrestricted feeder the oil pee'd out too much. As I said I now have a nice constant drip from all rockers. I (my engine builder) did strip my engine again to see if there was too much play in the cam rear journal or blockage in the galley but all was fine. I also had a blueprinted oil pump so lots of pressure but had to fit the feeder to solve the problem. Doing nothing was not an option.

Iain