No Oil Pressure Vitesse mk2

[Mad4classics]

OK; slightly outside the box. I've experienced this on a new competition Mini engine which sat on the bench for months after the brand new oil pump was primed. Much churning on the starter and no oil pressure - sweaty moment.

In the end decided to back fill the pump as @poppyman suggested and hey presto oil pressure - big sigh of relief all round.

I would inject as much oil in the outer ring as you can, wait a moment fill it some more and then spin it over on the starter (plugs out).

David

[Paul H]

11 minutes ago, Mad4classics said:

OK; slightly outside the box. I've experienced this on a new competition Mini engine which sat on the bench for months after the brand new oil pump was primed. Much churning on the starter and no oil pressure - sweaty moment.

In the end decided to back fill the pump as @poppyman suggested and hey presto oil pressure - big sigh of relief all round.

I would inject as much oil in the outer ring as you can, wait a moment fill it some more and then spin it over on the starter (plugs out).

David

I’ll try that thanks , the filter housing angle will cause some issues but I’m sure I can rig something up 

Paul 

[Peter Truman]

As there is a filter adapter could it be slackened and moved so the filter is nearer vertical for the purposes of filling the outer ring and priming the pump Easier and not so messy.

[johny]

Otherwise that grubscrew directly above the prv goes straight onto the pump discharge gallery on the way to the filter. Could you get oil in there?

[Nick Jones]

1 hour ago, johny said:

Otherwise that grubscrew directly above the prv goes straight onto the pump discharge gallery on the way to the filter. Could you get oil in there?

That would certainly do it.  Same effect as back filling from the oil filter adapter.  Not sure how accessible it is in the car - they are typically very tight.  Frankly I'm surprised that spinning it over with the oil filter off hasn't produced oil.  I'd be tempted to whip the plugs out and spin it for longer.  Bearing loads are very light like this.  Very odd to have so much difficulty.

Nick

[Paul H]

36 minutes ago, Nick Jones said:

That would certainly do it.  Same effect as back filling from the oil filter adapter.  Not sure how accessible it is in the car - they are typically very tight.  Frankly I'm surprised that spinning it over with the oil filter off hasn't produced oil.  I'd be tempted to whip the plugs out and spin it for longer.  Bearing loads are very light like this.  Very odd to have so much difficulty.

Nick

Access to the grubscrew is the same as the PRV so will try tomorrow if not change the orientation of the filler adaptor 

Paul 

[johny]

Yes all I can think is maybe the pump has drained of oil for some reason (which it must do everytime the engine stops) then this new filter has a very effective anti drain arrangement such that the air trapped in the pump and gallery can't be expelled so easily and the pump can't pull up oil from the sump...

[dave.vitesse]

As I said before this is an old chestnut and if you haven't experienced it before you have been lucky.

Pete is correct it's an lock, this is caused by the oil draining out of the oil pump pick-up pipe when the sump is drained. When you re-fill the sump the air in the pick-up pipe is trapped and prevents the oil getting up into the pump.

If I remember correctly some attempt was made to overcome this problem in the mid 1970's by having the pick-up pipe at an angle and not straight down. As the pick-up pipe was angled it tended to bleed out the air as the sump was filled.

Dave

[johny]

Sounds like having removed the Prv might have helped then as it connects directly to the intake and should have allowed at least some air out of it? Of course getting some oil in there, if possible, would have been even better.

However I think the plan of getting some oil in the main gallery and spinning the pump will now do the trick🤞

[Peter Truman]

Always wondered why the angled pick up pipe on the 1500 Spit.

The explanation re the loss of pump suction is the same as our swimming pool pump it always starts immediately discharging water UNLESS  you remove the lid on the built in filter bowl to clean it then you have to play silly buggers as the filter bowl is dry ie no drowned suction to the pump if you just switch the power on it won't suck water into the filter or pump BUT if you start/stop the pump repeatedly sometimes up to a half dozen times you can see the water slowly being drawn into the filter bowl and hence pump it can take 3 mins to totally get all the air out ie drowned suction. Unfortunately you can't bucket water fast enough into the filter bowl to keep water in there and get the lid sealed down.

Very very occasionally even the start/stop action doesn't work and I have to disconnect the creepy crawly cleaner and put the garden hose on full flow up the pipe to fill the suction pipe. Glad it didn't happen today when I serviced the pool it was down to 1C, so I didn't have to put my hands in the skimmer basket! 

Peter T

[poppyman]

12 hours ago, Paul H said:

Access to the grubscrew is the same as the PRV so will try tomorrow if not change the orientation of the filler adaptor 

Paul 

Hi Paul, just back fill the filter adaptor. The last car i remember with this problem was Ford Granada and we backfilled it with as much oil as we could get in. The result was customer got his car back and i had a brew and breathed a sigh of relief...

Tony.

[Paul H]

2 minutes ago, poppyman said:

Hi Paul, just back fill the filter adaptor. The last car i remember with this problem was Ford Granada and we backfilled it with as much oil as we could get in. The result was customer got his car back and i had a brew and breathed a sigh of relief...

Tony.

I don’t have the correct size Allan key for the gallery and couldn’t find size on WSM though looking at WSM did see layout and with PRV removed might be able to use a wanner plus a rubber nosed attachment to get some 20/50 into the oil pump 

is this worth a try , if not will move the filter assembly to backfill the outer holes 

Paul 

[Colin Lindsay]

I don't think it takes any pressure, any kind of funnel with a tube of suitable size will do, even the old Blue Peter washing up liquid bottle will squeeze a quantity in. 

Assuming the oil pick-up pipe has not been blocked by anything - the foil top off the oil container didn't drop in? (Seen that done, and the resulting bother to find it again!)

[Paul H]

1 hour ago, Colin Lindsay said:

I don't think it takes any pressure, any kind of funnel with a tube of suitable size will do, even the old Blue Peter washing up liquid bottle will squeeze a quantity in. 

Assuming the oil pick-up pipe has not been blocked by anything - the foil top off the oil container didn't drop in? (Seen that done, and the resulting bother to find it again!)

Filled up via PRV and filter housing , there is a hole in outer casing and fitted a tube and filled . Replaced the old filter and filled with fresh oil and took out the plugs , ran for about 20 secs and no oil pressure   .

my final test subject to opinion is to remove filter and turnover . If no pressure then it’s sump removal which I’ve never done before 

thinking outside the box could there be a block with the oil pressure union 

Paul 

 

[poppyman]

11 minutes ago, Paul H said:

Filled up via PRV and filter housing , there is a hole in outer casing and fitted a tube and filled . Replaced the old filter and filled with fresh oil and took out the plugs , ran for about 20 secs and no oil pressure   .

my final test subject to opinion is to remove filter and turnover . If no pressure then it’s sump removal which I’ve never done before 

thinking outside the box could there be a block with the oil pressure union 

Paul 

 

Hi Paul, how much oil did you put directly into the filter housing? 

[Colin Lindsay]

13 minutes ago, Paul H said:

thinking outside the box could there be a block with the oil pressure union 

Paul 

 

Simple enough to replace the switch straight to the block and see if the light goes out. Similarly - just remove the t-piece and crank the engine; oil should fly out of the hole.

If you suspect oil is circulating but just not being shown to be, remove the rocker cover and see if there's fresh oil around the rockers / head.

As a light aside - don't get depressed, this one will puck you up in no time....

 

 

 

[Pete Lewis]

there is nothing that can happen to the pump by drain and refill if it made pressure before and now it doesnt its not down to any unkown failure 

getting the sump off on a 6pot can be a bigger faf than whats going on here , its not a job for the faint hearted , or something for a rainy day 

its lift engine , stretch the hoses drop the rack maybe the anti roll  then fight and fiddle to drop rearwards and down off  with the pump obstructing most of the movement you need to extract it 

been there with a few tee shirts ,   then what do you expect to find    it all worked before you drained out

I still get the feeling you need to give some light beans for a minute , all this poncing about is getting nowhere .

[Guest]

Hello Paul,

Am I right in saying that your photographs show the oil filter pointing upwards - as in upside down ??

If this is the case and before you go whipping off the sump, may I suggest you rotate the spin-on filter housing assembly until the filter angle is pointing downwards which will be about 45 degrees, as in touching the chassis. I would fit the old filter and discard the 714/2 unit for the moment.

With that done, prime everything you can as mentioned above and then see if you can build the pressure up.

Out of interest, have you stopped fuel flowing in to the carbs as continued spinning over will draw fuel in to the cylinders - if I am correct in thinking that.

You have nothing to lose re spinning the assembly around; just an idea that may assist.

Regards.

Richard.

 

[NonMember]

6 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

 then what do you expect to find   

Probably Colin's foil top from the oil container 🤔

If no oil comes out when the filter is loose then I don't think it's a faulty switch or dodgy T-piece and I do think something is amiss.

2 minutes ago, classiclife said:

Am I right in saying that your photographs show the oil filter pointing upwards - as in upside down ??

I thought the photo showed it horizontal, or as close as you can get on a Vitesse, it's just that the photo is rotated.

[Paul H]

Thanks for replies 

the filter sits between the PRV and oil pressure switch so 10 dg up from horizontal 

I don’t think it’s possible to move the filter so it fits below the PRV . The current position has been in place for close to 4 years now 

when I filled the PRV and filter access only a small amount oil oil went in before overflowing 

it will be simple to remove rocker to see oil flow also to remove oil pressure fitting to see if oil flows 

i haven’t stopped the fuel but should be ok as it’s a Huco electric pump but easy enough to pull the fuse which I will do 

one thing I remember is when I fitted the Mann 714/2 for the first time it took some seconds longer to knock out the oil light 

Assuming none of the above works I will have to remove the sump as I assume the pump is the issue . I do have a pit 

Thanks again for all input 

Paul 

 

[SpitFire6]

Spin the oil pump with a drill.
You will be able to rotate it faster than cranking & you will know if the pump is pumping.

[Nick Jones]

4 hours ago, SpitFire6 said:

Spin the oil pump with a drill.
You will be able to rotate it faster than cranking & you will know if the pump is pumping.

I’d certainly do this before dropping the sump. That is a big and deeply unpleasant job on a Vitesse or GT6. Really shouldn’t need to do this after a simple oil change though.

Do you have an oil pressure gauge Paul? If so, what sort of range of oil pressure do you normally see?

Nick

[Paul H]

29 minutes ago, Nick Jones said:

I’d certainly do this before dropping the sump. That is a big and deeply unpleasant job on a Vitesse or GT6. Really shouldn’t need to do this after a simple oil change though.

Do you have an oil pressure gauge Paul? If so, what sort of range of oil pressure do you normally see?

Nick

Hi Nick I do have a oil pressure guage , 70 on startup 50 at 50mph 20/25 on tickover . After long run maybe down to 15 on tickover but no lower . 

Today I pulled the plugs , moved the oil filter carrier to vertical backfilled both holes ( centre and side) with about 500ml , dipstick now rising . No filter fitted . I do have hi torque starter 

Ran engine  , oil started to rise and flow gently over but very slowly no drama which I was hoping for . My deduction low pressure , pick up blocked ? Or oil pump failure ? 

Paul 

[Steve P]

Imho definitely worth pulling the dizzy and drive,and then using the drill,you will know from the resistance on the pump if it has died.

Steve

[SpitFire6]

Hi,

 What size/thread/hex is the grub screw above the PRV that is pre-filter?
Is it possible to remove it without wrecking the block? They seem cheap enough.
I would like to fit a pressure transmitter there.

Cheers,

Iain.